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There is another one who has never been to New York. Only the old skyscrapers have set backs.
That's a half-truth since many of the new buildings had a different kind of "setback" that involved the far more traditional setback of placing the skyscraper itself away from the street and further into the plot and converting the plot into some kind of open space or plaza. There are a bunch of irregularities to the general use of setbacks (of both varieties) though, but far from the majority and not really clumped together side-by-side.
Do you mean you can't see the sky in Chicago? LOL? Where? Underneath the L?
Besides the single La Salle Canyon thee are no places that you really feel the towering effect, Chicago's skyscrapers are to spread out to create that.
Speaking of the L, I actually posted two responses in your absence. Look forward to continuing the discussion!
No, that's incorrect. They are much more densely packed in downtown than in Manhattan. The LaSalle Street canyon is impressive, but it's only one area which gives that effect. Increasingly, Michigan Ave. has this effect. Also (and I'm speaking here for the others in this thread who care, not poisonous trolls like Dementor), State Street, Wabash Street, Lake Street, W. Upper Wacker, North Upper Wacker, everywhere in the entire New East Side (no setbacks there), everywhere in Streeterville (no setbacks there), and increasingly in the South Loop.
These areas give Chicago that "Gotham" feeling. It's a really cool thing, and worth checking out when you visit. Dementor, don't poop your pants. Go on the potty like a big boy.
Keep on truckin', Dementor. You'll get this crazy world figured out yet.
I actually have to disagree with this...Manhattan is def more densley packed than the loop; first reason is that lot sizes are smaller in NYC, so there are more buildings per block than in Chicago. Also, there are no alleys in NYC, so you don't have that elbow room between buildings that you get in Chicago.
As far as setbacks, my biggest beef with new highrises in Chicago, is the setbacks. Im not sure which areas of Streeterville you are refering to, but literally every new highrise has a parking podium, with the tower on top of it, creating a setback. By New east side I assume that is Lakeshore East? Aqua has a HUGE podium.
Right, you are the one person on this website who magically doesn't know who Dementor is.
Dementor, I have been to New York. You are the one who has never convinced your mom to let you come to Chicago. She said you could come if you practiced your piano, but you didn't. Instead, you threw a temper tantrum and spent the summer in White Plains, NY.
We are right about the structure of the skyscrapers in Chicago. Why are you even arguing this? Do you want New York to deny something that makes it unique and cool, i.e. its buildings' setbacks?
Honestly, Dementor, sometimes it seems like you just argue for argument's sake. It's not very becoming, and that's no way to get your first girlfriend. Now you better go to sleep before your mom catches you using your computer this late!
Your defensive comments make me even more sure you have never been to New York. As fas as arguing for the sake of argument.... Do you know what projection in psychology is?
Brooklyn and NYC in general has many many urban settings like this.
That's where the strengh of New York lies. You have to remember that it has been a thriving big city well before the skyscrapers were introduced to the landscape.
Right, you are the one person on this website who magically doesn't know who Dementor is.
Dementor, I have been to New York. You are the one who has never convinced your mom to let you come to Chicago. She said you could come if you practiced your piano, but you didn't. Instead, you threw a temper tantrum and spent the summer in White Plains, NY.
We are right about the structure of the skyscrapers in Chicago. Why are you even arguing this? Do you want New York to deny something that makes it unique and cool, i.e. its buildings' setbacks?
Honestly, Dementor, sometimes it seems like you just argue for argument's sake. It's not very becoming, and that's no way to get your first girlfriend. Now you better go to sleep before your mom catches you using your computer this late!
U gotta admit, that was funny. I laughed out loud...hard
I haven't seen any pictures of particularly gorgeous lowrise neighborhoods in Chicago--I'm pretty sure Chicago loses in that department.
I'm definitely not saying Chicago is better, but there ARE many pretty low-rise areas of Chicago if you go walk the neighborhoods. They're obviously different from NYC because they two cities are VERY different. Chicago is more set back. They did that on purpose though, regardless of whatever visual effect that gives.
Last edited by Chicago60614; 05-29-2009 at 09:41 AM..
Yes, ventilation in modern subways that have the funds have been resolved. I suppose I should chalk this up to a price thing--it's costlier to implement and maintain a really good system that would be equivalent or better than just being outside. Good point, I should've explicitly stated the problem of costs--instead I just said easier which can be taken a number of ways.
- And yes, claustrophobia. I'm sure you know what claustrophobia means, but I say it in a pop-psych sort of way rather than the clinical term. For many people, it simply feels better to be in a more open space while they wait for the train rather than being in a small enclosed underground space (of course, if the city had a crapload of money to spend, they can make the underground platforms much bigger than strictly necessary with naturalistic lighting and a gentle fresh breeze going through and maybe a vague hint of barbeque or lilacs in the air--then again, a crapload of money could make a lot of things a lot better). The view of the outside while riding helps a lot, too.
- Elevated lines can make streets more pleasing since it'd be part of the surroundings. Also, I remember numerous el platforms in Taipei that were integrated into the streets such that the ground level under the platform was actually a nice, shielded open-air place where people congregated and shops and hawker stands were set up. It's fantastic save for when it gets too busy and you have to wade through people to get to the platform. It was vibrant and the station itself looked nice. It was also a hoot pulling into it on weekend nights and seeing all the lights of the food stands and their gleam off of the sea of people's heads.
- In a previous post, I did mention that the lines can shield from the sun which is certainly desirable to some people at some points. Some people do like their shade on hot sunny days--I'd be one of them. Of course, it's a double-edged sword as sometimes you do want the sun. In that case, as I've mentioned before, you can probably go on the many streets that don't have elevated lines that probably run parallel to the ones that do. It does give you an option. Additionally, it's not like there isn't going to be ambient light going around--walking into a street with an el line will seldom come close to being plunged into darkness.
You quite rightly list some of the advantages of the subway. They do indeed free up surface real estate (though el trains can also have a fairly small footprint if you're talking about street level).
Subways certainly have an easier time containing noise and dust. Unfortunately, the NYC subways are a bit too good at containing the noise and the dust within their system, and it gets to be a bit much sometimes.
Instinctively, I want to agree with your point on less exposure to the elements equates to better reliability. It should make perfect sense, but taking the NYC subways for examples, the 7 train which runs as an elevated for most of its stretch, is a much-used train that is more reliable and breaks down less often than most of the other trains in the system. Does perhaps the elements (wind and rain) somehow do a better job of cleaning off the tracks so that it more than makes up for problems created by exposure to the elements? Anyhow, this ties into the point on debris, since a closed system like a subway can have a hell of a time clearing out accumulated debris. It's an advantage that tends to swing in an el's favor (what street level debris is going to rise up to an elevated track? what street level debris can fall into a subway? where does subway level debris fall to? how much easier is it to clean up elevated tracks than it is to clean up the miles of (usually dark) tunnels for a subway?).
Wind tunnel effect is an interesting term for it since the ventilation can make it harder in another way despite their not being sidewinds--if the air circulation isn't all that great (and the air being pushed as the train moves have little to work against) then the train has to push harder against the air in a subway since the air has no easy flowpath.
Good points though! This is more useful for others to be able to make a good judgment themselves.
I am sorry but I can't say the same about yours. None of the points you made make any sense whatsoever. Subways are enclosed so they are not so exposed to elements such a snow which can shut down the L's. Unlike the L's subways enjoy windtunnel effects, there are no sidewinds, so they can run faster (jump on NY's L in Bedford and notice the speed the train achieves under the river). Subways are not exposed to debris such as tree branches like the L's. Most importanlty however subway do not take up valuable real estate and do not block the sun with their structures. They also do not pollut the streets with as much noise as the L's. It's easy: New York, Chicago and LA all decided against elevated trains for a good reason.
Last edited by advocatusdiavoli; 05-29-2009 at 09:56 AM..
There are lots of other canyons in River North and the Loop besides LaSalle. You just have to find the good vantages.
Here's River North for example:
No they are not. You can play with angle of pictures but there are not many areas in Chicago when you have the New York style canyon effect.
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