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There's more than one poster who'd argue with you that the "Valley of the Sun" has way more in common with Southern California than it does with New Mexico. I'm inclined to agree, after living in Phoenix so many years ago (almost looks like an extension of the Inland Empire). I do think that many Phoenecians almost pretend as if they live in California, being in denial of Phoenix's obvious geographic location (much like how South Florida "isn't Southern")
However, I will say that the Phoenix is an anomaly in the larger regional outlook, even though almost half of all people in the Southwest LIVE in or around Phoenix. New Mexico, as of yet, still doesn't have as many growth pains as Arizona has had in the past 20-30 years. Arizona, at least right now, sadly comes off as a bit more dysfunctional than New Mexico BECAUSE of all the growth coming from everywhere. It's almost as if Arizona DOESN'T want to be in the Southwest. And that's truly sad, IMO.
I kind of have a different take. I think you are right in the fact that Phoenix has more in common with So Cal and Vegas. It is much newer and doesn't have the old Spanish roots combined with Native American culture that Tucson and Albuquerque do. I fully concede that New Mexico is more Southwestern than AZ and much more so than Phoenix. Tucson is way more Southwestern than Phx too due to the reasons given above. I don't think many Phoenicians pretend to be in California. In fact I think they do the opposite. Many of them move in from other parts of the country and try to adopt what they feel is southwestern culture. They totally deny any similarities to the west coast and try forge a "Southwestern identity" which I often think is forced. If anything Phoenix is a hybrid west coast/midwestern city. Most of our population comes from these places.
I think you guys who are saying Arizona is not southwest at all should leave Phoenix once. Because once you leave phoenix its a hell of a lot different. Just imagine it like this. If arizona only had Tucson, and no Phoenix it would be practically identical to New Mexico.
I think you guys who are saying Arizona is not southwest at all should leave Phoenix once. Because once you leave phoenix its a hell of a lot different. Just imagine it like this. If arizona only had Tucson, and no Phoenix it would be practically identical to New Mexico.
That's exactly my point. I think Arizona on the whole is Southwestern just not Phoenix as much.
I think you guys who are saying Arizona is not southwest at all should leave Phoenix once. Because once you leave phoenix its a hell of a lot different. Just imagine it like this. If arizona only had Tucson, and no Phoenix it would be practically identical to New Mexico.
The reality is, 2/3 of the population of Arizona LIVE in or around Phoenix. Out of the 8.6 million that live in AZ and NM combined, nearly HALF live in or around Phoenix. The reality is, Phoenix has to be recognized as part of the cultural milieu that the Southwest is. I mean, its already got the Native American and Hispanic influence down, I think its nice to have some strong Anglo influence finally coming in to help shape the overall culture of the region
But again, even when you read it in the Phoenix forum on this site, I feel like many residents feel the biggest draw of Phoenix is that "its near California" The biggest draw SHOULDN'T be being near something, it should be in the place itself. Phoenicians should be proud of being the flagship city of a great region, instead of riding the coattails of a place that barely even recognizes it (Californians RARELY talk about places outside of California, except for Vegas and the part of Tahoe in NV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by casden
The interesting thing is that Arizona and New Mexico were once one large territory - probably larger than Texas.
Can you imagine if that territory had been added to the US as one big state - instead of split in two?
...then the rivalry would be about the eastern and western or northern and southern parts of the same huge state.
Desert Southwest (Arizona and New Mexico)
Population: 8,605,449
Area: 235,587 sq. miles
Major metropolitan areas: Phoenix, Tucson, Albuquerque
Area GDP: $323,206,000,000
Area population growth rate since 2000 (w/ 2009 stats): 18.9%
National Parks in the Region: Grand Canyon, Petrified Forest, Carlsbad Canyon, Saguaro
It would still be smaller than Texas (TX has 268,820 square miles), less populated, and have a way smaller GDP, but it WOULD make the Southwest have a HUGER voice than it does right now.
I think the biggest separation in the region is North/South. The cooler and higher elevation of the north, vs. the rapidly growing and warmer part of the south.
I still want to see more of New Mexico..I smell a new roadtrip coming up soon!
The reality is, 2/3 of the population of Arizona LIVE in or around Phoenix. Out of the 8.6 million that live in AZ and NM combined, nearly HALF live in or around Phoenix. The reality is, Phoenix has to be recognized as part of the cultural milieu that the Southwest is. I mean, its already got the Native American and Hispanic influence down, I think its nice to have some strong Anglo influence finally coming in to help shape the overall culture of the region
But again, even when you read it in the Phoenix forum on this site, I feel like many residents feel the biggest draw of Phoenix is that "its near California" The biggest draw SHOULDN'T be being near something, it should be in the place itself. Phoenicians should be proud of being the flagship city of a great region, instead of riding the coattails of a place that barely even recognizes it (Californians RARELY talk about places outside of California, except for Vegas and the part of Tahoe in NV)
Desert Southwest (Arizona and New Mexico)
Population: 8,605,449
Area: 235,587 sq. miles
Major metropolitan areas: Phoenix, Tucson, Albuquerque
Area GDP: $323,206,000,000
Area population growth rate since 2000 (w/ 2009 stats): 18.9%
National Parks in the Region: Grand Canyon, Petrified Forest, Carlsbad Canyon, Saguaro
It would still be smaller than Texas (TX has 268,820 square miles), less populated, and have a way smaller GDP, but it WOULD make the Southwest have a HUGER voice than it does right now.
I think the biggest separation in the region is North/South. The cooler and higher elevation of the north, vs. the rapidly growing and warmer part of the south.
I still want to see more of New Mexico..I smell a new roadtrip coming up soon!
You have some valid points but I still think the idea of one cohesive Southwest region is flawed. I actually think many people that live in Phoenix actually agree with you. They do want to see themselves as the capital of the so called Southwest. It just doesn't wash for me because to be the focal point of a region don't you have to have a fair amount of interaction with other parts of your region? There's far more interaction and commonality with So. Cal. and S. Nev. than there is with New Mexico and El Paso. I don't know how Phoenix could be the capital of the region if it has more interaction with the west coast than it does with it's neighbors to the east. I think many Phoenicians feel the way about New Mexico as you described Californians feel about Arizona. We know they're there but just don't talk or think about them much.
The reason you hear Phoenicians talk about proximity to CA is because most of the people who moved to PHX in the last 20 years are from CA and they still feel like Californians at heart. PHX's worst problem is it's schizophrenic identity.
I live in PHX, and of the 100 or so people I work with, almost half are from CA, always root for the visiting CA team, talk to you about Orange County or some random beach like you're supposed to know where they're talking about, and never miss an opportunity to tell how great CA is and how much they hate it here.
New Mexico take note.
Don't let it happen to you. Growth for the sake of growth is not a good thing.
You have some valid points but I still think the idea of one cohesive Southwest region is flawed. I actually think many people that live in Phoenix actually agree with you. They do want to see themselves as the capital of the so called Southwest. It just doesn't wash for me because to be the focal point of a region don't you have to have a fair amount of interaction with other parts of your region? There's far more interaction and commonality with So. Cal. and S. Nev. than there is with New Mexico and El Paso. I don't know how Phoenix could be the capital of the region if it has more interaction with the west coast than it does with it's neighbors to the east. I think many Phoenicians feel the way about New Mexico as you described Californians feel about Arizona. We know they're there but just don't talk or think about them much.
I think it would be more advantageous for Phoenix to be part of a region where it would stand out at the big dog (the rest of the Southwest), rather than try to ride the coattails of another region that has little to no respect for it (California). It's not like Phoenix is totally devoid of anything Southwestern either...just go drive to the Gila Indian Reservation and stop by Guadalupe on the way. Doesn't really get more Southwestern than that!
You do have a point that the interaction between Phoenix, and even Tucson isn't there with New Mexico (in fact, just as many Arizonans move to Washington State as they do to New Mexico) but this interaction with CA is a one way street mostly dealing with Californians moving to Phoenix. But one could also argue that the HUGE Mexican population makes Phoenix closer to a Mexican city than an American city, but we know that's false.
The Southwest isn't a unified place by any stretch of the imagination, but like it or not, Phoenix IS located in it. However, this doesn't mean that it shouldn't have ties to the West Coast. It just means that geographic reality dictates the day in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacto
The reason you hear Phoenicians talk about proximity to CA is because most of the people who moved to PHX in the last 20 years are from CA and they still feel like Californians at heart. PHX's worst problem is it's schizophrenic identity.
I live in PHX, and of the 100 or so people I work with, almost half are from CA, always root for the visiting CA team, talk to you about Orange County or some random beach like you're supposed to know where they're talking about, and never miss an opportunity to tell how great CA is and how much they hate it here.
New Mexico take note.
Don't let it happen to you. Growth for the sake of growth is not a good thing.
I'm sorry that happens. I have a feeling once the economy rebounds, California is going to see a reverse exodus of ex-Californians coming back here.
However, they should also respect their new home. You know the saying "When in Rome....." When I lived in Phoenix (keep in mind, that was back in 2000 when I was 10), I developed a fascination of Arizona and the Southwest in general and didn't have the need to tell anyone I was from LA.
Don't worry though; every other Western state hates us for exactly the same reason, and I can't say I don't blame them. Californians are trying to turn Phoenix into LA east, Seattle into Bay Area north, Denver into Rocky Mountain LA, etc etc. Crazy, ain't it?
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