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Spinoff idea from the Seattle thread, created this one to get a Raleigh-specific conversation started on where people see Raleigh, and where they see it going...
CSA Raleigh-Durham is approaching 2.1 million and there are some people who view CSA Triangle as an MSA, so just to contextualize, that CSA is right below Cincinnati (31st) and if it were an MSA it would be right below Columbus (33rd). So starting from population, feel free to include where you find Raleigh, all factors that weigh into it...
My opinion has been and remains that MSA Raleigh (42nd, below OKC) is more indicative of the degree of "big city experience" you'll find here, though others disagree. And personally it isnt a difficult mental task to view Rgh in that light while simultaneously acknowledging it as the more prominent co-anchor of a larger region (CSA), that isnt fatiguing to me and I'm not of the opinion that the two don't or can't exist/be acknowledged simultaneously, but again, I realize other people feel differently...
I will say I've noticed for years that its ascending, there is no doubt about that. I think where I differ from other posters who also live here is how fast and how far, I'm familiar with a number of cities of similar size and I dont think its broken out of the Memphis/Richmond tier, though that may be inevitable (though its worth pointing out with respect to others, those two cities as well as Jax and others aren't just stagnating either). However others find comparison to Austin, Nashville, Charlotte and the like---->I find that ambitious but not peer cities but I'm open to hearing from others on why they find Raleigh as equal...
So where is Raleigh to the larger CD community, Jacksonville/Richmond/Memphis group, Charlotte/Austin/Nashville group, or somewhere in between? If you see it in the former group, how long until it distances completely into the next one? If you see it in the latter tier, does it have a shot of separating from these cities? Or is it simply currently in a unique in-between spot right now?
Again feel free to include whatever factors you'd like to define Raleigh as you see it currently and where you see it going!
I’ll just say that there is closing in on half-a-million people in the Apex-North Raleigh corridor. To wit, those Raleigh suburbs treat themselves as ipso facto Durham suburbs at the same time. That’s why Wake County is serviced by two downtowns, being the number one provider of both downtown Durham events (Bulls, DPAC) and downtown Raleigh. MSA treats it as if there is an invisible wall running through RTP that keeps Raleigh and Durham separate, but it simply doesn’t exist. So any discussion of Raleigh MSA (which incidentally doesn’t even have all of the city of Raleigh located in its parameters) has to come with the caveat that Durham’s MSA is an organic part of the picture in ways most other areas don’t have. Strict apple-to-apples MSA comparisons simply can’t happen honestly.
To that end, the population of the region matches the lower tier of the Nashville tier. But it’s multi-nodal nature coupled with its lack of a historically large urban footprint makes it seem out-of-place in some ways there. You could perhaps place it in a different tier, but it would be on surgically narrow lines that would likely sound self-serving to my ears. The city of Raleigh by itself has a symphony, opera, ballet, a thriving local art scene, and the majority of the state’s art, natural, and historical museum collections.
I think you could do an apples-to-apples MSA comparison regardless because the intent is the practical measuring of amenities, events, etc...
Except people living in Raleigh’s MSA have practical access to another fully functioning downtown and MSA. What’s more, someone living in Raleigh could work, play, and live most of their life in Durham’s MSA. That simply has no comparison to any other tier to be honest.
Except people living in Raleigh’s MSA have practical access to another fully functioning downtown and MSA. What’s more, someone living in Raleigh could work, play, and live most of their life in Durham’s MSA. That simply has no comparison to any other tier to be honest.
True, but none of these things are absolute. Most people who live in central, East, and South Raleigh areas, as well as the neighboring suburbs, have the same access to Durham but we aren't going to Durham with regularity...
For me that "access" is like how the Rocky Mountains are in relation to Denver. Its there and close enough if you want to experience it, and its in the same metropolis so of course there is no invisible wall prohibiting movement. Most of what goes on in Durham isn't essential to the daily function if life in Raleigh though, they are just two smaller metros that grew together to create a larger metro and there are aspects where they both function as a unit and independently...
I mean not everyone in a metro will have equal access. Someone in Stamford Ct will live life quite different from someone who lives on Park Avenue. Be that as it may, Stamford’s limitations aren’t the measuring stick of living in the Greater NYC region. You measure from the epicenter. For most areas, it’s the downtown which radiates outward. For the Triangle, it’s somewhere in northwestern Wake County where the population is centered and basically straddles two different MSA’s in ways not seen in either tier of which you want to make an easy comparison with.
I live in NC, and I know that Raleigh has it's own MSA, but like someone said, it's hard to separate Raleigh from Durham. There is no line there that lets you know you have crossed from one MSA (Durham's) to another. So, for me, I like to view this from a CSA perspective.
The Raleigh area has some fundamental things in place that qualifies the area as a metro area to be reckoned with: they have a nice Int'l airport, world-class universities, an educated populace, Research Triangle Park, state government, museums, arts, and nice city and state parks.
I know the OP mentioned the growing population of the Raleigh area. It is impressive, but I don't know if having a growing population alone means that a metro area can move up to a higher tier and compete with more established cities by that metric.
I think it will take a combination of metrics for a metro center to move up the ranks. Sure, a growing population is important, but a metro area needs an identity and name recognition, among other things. If Fortune 500 companies plant locations or relocate there, it helps.
I think Raleigh is built for some of these things to happen.
Raleigh and Durham are part of the same MSA. Always will be. I have worked with the statistical analysis of metro areas for 35 years and have contact with the U.S. Census Bureau. They have never had truly definitive guidelines as to what constitutes what counties are to be included in a metro area. I've never been able to get any logical answer from them on many of the illogical choices they make in inserting counties, excluding counties, or even dissecting a single county in metros. Then they will reverse themselves just 2 or 3 years after a decision. At one time, they included Anson Co. NC in the Charlotte metro. Anson center (Wadesboro) is a tad over an hours drive/commute from downtown Charlotte, has no geographical/demographical/recreational/economic draw or contribution to the metro area. They're in the media market, and that's about it. Yet, they didn't include Iredell Co. in the metro at that same time, which covers all of the above mentioned aspect to Charlotte's metro area. In all intents and purposes for the 4 above listed categories, Raleigh/Durham are the same metro area. The ties, synergy, and relationship that make them a single metro are undeniable. This could also be said for many other metros as well.
Raleigh and Durham are part of the same MSA. Always will be. I have worked with the statistical analysis of metro areas for 35 years and have contact with the U.S. Census Bureau. They have never had truly definitive guidelines as to what constitutes what counties are to be included in a metro area. I've never been able to get any logical answer from them on many of the illogical choices they make in inserting counties, excluding counties, or even dissecting a single county in metros. Then they will reverse themselves just 2 or 3 years after a decision. At one time, they included Anson Co. NC in the Charlotte metro. Anson center (Wadesboro) is a tad over an hours drive/commute from downtown Charlotte, has no geographical/demographical/recreational/economic draw or contribution to the metro area. They're in the media market, and that's about it. Yet, they didn't include Iredell Co. in the metro at that same time, which covers all of the above mentioned aspect to Charlotte's metro area. In all intents and purposes for the 4 above listed categories, Raleigh/Durham are the same metro area. The ties, synergy, and relationship that make them a single metro are undeniable. This could also be said for many other metros as well.
There are a few inaccuracies in your post.
Firstly, Raleigh and Durham anchor separate MSAs but are part of a singular CSA.
Secondly, there actually are county inclusion criteria in place for MSAs and CSAs which are subject to revision every 10 years (we are still using the 2010 criteria as outlined in the Federal Register) and changes in the metrics that comprise the criteria in core-based statistical areas, according to yearly estimates data, result in new delineations. New yearly delineations are documented in OMB Bulletins.
Counties are not dissected when it comes to MSA/CSA delineations; they always remain intact. The only exception that I can think of are NECTAs which are specific to New England but they do not replace MSAs/CSAs but are another distinct category specifically for New England metros.
They don’t cut up counties, but they do cut up cities. I don’t get the criteria personally. I’ve seen commuting is an issue, but then it looks like Wake-Durham has the strongest commuting ties of any two counties in the state so. With COVID and WFH, I do wonder if the commuting criteria is long for this world.
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