What States Are Considered Southern - Here's Your Sign (Atlanta, Florida, metro)

[ceeglass]

missymomof3 - I, too, am a missymomof3. At work, the designer's that work for me I call "Missy Char" (her name is Charlene) or Missy Jennifer, etc. They all have started calling eachother Missy this or that and ask if everyone in the South says Miss or Missy with a first name. I don't hear it at all out here in CA and I think I do it just to feel closer to home. But your username is charming and makes me homesick.

[TexasReb]

Just a few random observations...

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

Only states with overt Southern culture in the majority of the entire state: Deep South states and then some surrounding states. IMHO here's how I would rank 'em (which matches up pretty well with the Census, although my designations/groupings are a little different):

Deep South
Alabama
Mississippi
South Carolina
Georgia
Louisiana

Mid-South
Tennessee
Arkansas
Kentucky

Western South
Oklahoma
Texas

Coastal South
North Carolina
Virginia*
Florida*

Border South
West Virginia

*Florida and Virginia receive an asterick for not containing a majority of Southern culture due to high influx of transplants. However, in the areas where there is Southern culture in Florida (Pensacola to Lakeland) and Virginia (Richmond to southern border) the Southern culture is very strong/observable.

Very good job, my friend!

Spade wrote: Oh no and hardly anyone in Texas would agree with this as well. The only place where you can say Texas is deep South is along US 59 and points east. This excludes the Houston area so cut down to I-10 and points east as well. That makes up about a small percentage of the state. In other words, Texas is not a Deep South state. Texas is South. But not deep South and certainly not Southeast.

Solytaire wrote: I dont know if I agree with the US 59 demarcation of the Texas extent of the Deep South...I think I 45 and east all the way up through Huntsville could easily be considered the western extent of the Deep South...Conroe to Huntsville, looks exactly like parts of Mississippi and Alabama I have driven through except that its a little flatter...Now by the time one hits Madisonville on I 45 any Deep south semblances have disappeared from what I could tell... And truthfully, Huntsville really looks and feels like a Deep South town...could just be the oppressive presence of the TDCJ, but it felt pretty Southern there.

.

As a fellow Texan, I followed y'alls exchange -- with the proverbial 'great interest' LOL -- as to exactly where (if there is one) the "Deep South" begins in Texas.

Lord a' mercy, I hate to sound wishy-washy, but I agree with both of you.

Interestingly enough (or at least it is to me! LOL), I just returned from Caddo Lake in East Texas and Hwy 59 is a "main route" for us. I don't think there is much doubt that along and east is where the Deep South is definitely the Deep South. And you are right, Spade. Texas as a whole is Southern, but not Deep South Southern.

At the same time, there are never any sharp lines between "sub-regions". And in the case of Texas, the one between the "Deep South" and "western South" is perhaps the most stark and noteable -- and even abrupt -- of all transitions as concerns the Southern states in this realm. That is, one sub-region to another...

Anyway though, I agree with Solytaire that somewhere around I-45 it does indeed begin to evolve noteably. Somewhere in there the whole "moodscape" changes from that "frontier west South" into that gentle fatalism of the Deep South.

*sighs* I know I am not doing a very good job of describing all this. But I know it when I see and experience it...

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by ceeglass

Just so y'all all know, the article I posted to start this thread did not come from Wikipedia. It was a university press that gives limited permission to use the article, which I thoroughly read before posting.

I was referring to the one AJF posted. Not all articles on Wiki are bad, just that you can't always assume they are accurate.

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by ceeglass

missymomof3 - I, too, am a missymomof3. At work, the designer's that work for me I call "Missy Char" (her name is Charlene) or Missy Jennifer, etc. They all have started calling eachother Missy this or that and ask if everyone in the South says Miss or Missy with a first name. I don't hear it at all out here in CA and I think I do it just to feel closer to home. But your username is charming and makes me homesick.

Well thank you hun but I am sorry you are homesick

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by ceeglass

Sir or Madame - The thread was started to establish what states are Southern. Missouri was not named in the article as a Southern state. If it included an error as to what States the Census Bureaus groups in it's Southern region polls, I profusely and sincerely apologize for the obvious aggravation and irritation this has caused you. Let's stand the author, type-setter or reader up and slap them ten times with a wet noodle. Will that make you feel better? That error was not critical in the articles establishment of what in modern times are Southern states, but was used as an aside reference of interest only. Yet, you want to hang your hat there at every opportunity. I think you can get over the error, can't you? The thread was started to establish the South today. If you'd like to disect each states credentials or how Southern or not they are, start a thread asking that. I'm sure you'll have plenty of participants. As I pointed out, this isn't done with the North, just the Southern and border states. It seems many people are bent on making as many Southern states the least Southern they can. I don't know why it makes them feel better to do that, but for some strange reason it does. I never heard my Louisiana family tell my Kentucky family "we're more Southern than you, ha, ha, ha," or my Kentucky family say to my Tennessee family "Well, we may have some Southern tendencies, but, thankfully, we're not as Southern as you." Thusly, I refer you once again to the comment from Heritage of the South. That's how most Southerns feel about eachother whether other people understand it, like it or approve of it or not.

And with regard to Kentucky, what was it you think I should have said? I was responding to her query about "My Old Kentucky Home." And as a shout out, as it were, to a Kentuckian, letting her know of my family's connection to the state.

Again, I apologize if I didn't catch an error with regard to Missouri and the Census Bureau in the article I posted. Can you possibly forgive me?

I never had any objections to your comment about Kentucky. See...I'm not the only one who has problems reading other people's posts. It seems also that many people such as you are intent on making border states the MOST Southern you can, regardless if that's true or not. I agree that some of the border states actually qualify as Southern today...the accents and culture are clearly present in Kentucky and West Virginia, as well as the cash crops. In Maryland and Delaware, the Southern accent is quite uncommon and the culture is not Southern. The same thing applies to Missouri. So you can call those states Southern today, but the simple truth of the matter is that they only have some Southern influence today. A border state is NOT necessarily a Southern state.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by missymomof3

I was referring to the one AJF posted. Not all articles on Wiki are bad, just that you can't always assume they are accurate.

The article I posted is accurate, however. Look up any definition of the Midwestern United States in another encyclopedia and you should get the exact same thing. I always check to make sure my sources are agreed upon by others before I make the post. Now of course, there are exceptional users on here who want to attack every single piece of this just because they personally disagree, regardless of whether there is any factual information to support their position. I am not one of those people, and even if I was, the only evidence people have of that on here are their opinions, so they may as well just keep their lips zipped on the issue instead of assuming they know everything about me, because really, they only think they do.

[ajf131]

As far as the article being published by a university press, I don't care who published it, it still contains many inaccurate pieces of information. The simple fact that not all of what it says coincides the truth and that no sources are given to back it up should damage its credibility and merely reduce it to the point of view of the person writing it. Not only is it wrong about the U.S. Census Bureau considering Missouri Southern, it's also incorrect about why Missouri didn't secede from the Union. Missouri did not secede solely because of fear of being attacked from all sides...that likely was only the biggest reason among pro-secessionist governor Claiborne Jackson and the Missouri legislature, and how much of the Missouri legislature thought like this is unclear because there was never any evidence to indicate how many were present at the secession in Neosho, which itself was illegitimate because the state convention declared all state offices vacant shortly after the government went to Neosho, therefore nullifying any legitimacy to the secession. Not to mention, the state convention had to vote for secession to make it legitimate. Twice as many Missourians fought for the Union as for the Confederacy. There is absolutely no evidence any Missourians that fought on the Union side were forced to. Missouri was divided on both sides, but the amount that fought on the side of the Union as opposed to the Confederacy is enough to cast serious doubt on the article's theory there, and that also suggests Missouri's stance more toward the Union. In addition, the post-Civil War election had two states, Missouri and New Jersey, voting for candidate Stephen Douglas, from Springfield, Illinois, who was a moderate unionist. No Southern state voted for this man. All I have to say is that anyone who thinks this one article is the deciding factor for which state is Southern and isn't should stop and check other sources to see how well it really holds up.

[Bobilee]

Originally Posted by ajf131

As far as the article being published by a university press, I don't care who published it, it still contains many inaccurate pieces of information.

I would agree generally on this point. Consider this line from the OP's original post----"This state was West Virginia. Opposition to secession was strong and the state chose to secede from Virginia rather than from the Union."

West Virginia was not a state, it was an act of Congress signed by Pres. Lincoln. It had nothing to do with the people of West Virginia. Twenty-four counties consisting of two-thirds the territory of the state had voted to secede from the Union. The military historian Russell F. Weigley, in his "A Great Civil War", stated things very frankly, as no Civil War historian has before on West Virginia---

"In much of the new state, the Confederacy in fact dominated throughout the war, all the more firmly supported by a local population resentful of attempts to alter its state allegiance against its will. Except in the Ohio River counties, the new state could enforce its writ only under the bayonets of the Union Army. Not only could there have been no West Virginia without military victories such as McClellan won in the late spring and early summer of 1861; it remained true that except along the Ohio River the Unionist state government and Unionist citizens had no safety but in the immediate vicinity of the army. Confederate sympathies that were intensified by the highhanded dismemberment of Virginia threw up yet another guerrilla conflict...Most of West Virginia went through the Civil war not as an asset to the Union but as a troublesome battleground, while the Unionist Ohio River counties struggled to cope with the tide of refugees fleeing to their sanctuary from the interior." Russell F. Weigley, A Great Civil War, pg. 55

Unlike any of the other border South states that did not secede, West Virginia did not give a majority of its soldiers to the Union. Union numbers were inflated with Ohio/Penn. soldiers and re-enlistments figures.

[atlantagreg30127]

WARNING:

The number of jabs and bickering posts are increasing and the thread will be shut down if it doesn't stop. Stay on topic and stop taking pot shots at each other (and you know who you are).

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Just a few random observations...




Very good job, my friend!



.

As a fellow Texan, I followed y'alls exchange -- with the proverbial 'great interest' LOL -- as to exactly where (if there is one) the "Deep South" begins in Texas.

Lord a' mercy, I hate to sound wishy-washy, but I agree with both of you.

Interestingly enough (or at least it is to me! LOL), I just returned from Caddo Lake in East Texas and Hwy 59 is a "main route" for us. I don't think there is much doubt that along and east is where the Deep South is definitely the Deep South. And you are right, Spade. Texas as a whole is Southern, but not Deep South Southern.

At the same time, there are never any sharp lines between "sub-regions". And in the case of Texas, the one between the "Deep South" and "western South" is perhaps the most stark and noteable -- and even abrupt -- of all transitions as concerns the Southern states in this realm. That is, one sub-region to another...

Anyway though, I agree with Solytaire that somewhere around I-45 it does indeed begin to evolve noteably. Somewhere in there the whole "moodscape" changes from that "frontier west South" into that gentle fatalism of the Deep South.

*sighs* I know I am not doing a very good job of describing all this. But I know it when I see and experience it...

Thanks Brother!

I would also like to include my opinion on degree of Southerness just to add to the discussion a bit. (The only states listed I have not been to are Alabama and West Virgina. I'm basing my opinion of AL and WV on experiences of friends and what I have read on this forum, etc.) I know this has been done in other threads but it wouldn't hurt to revisit it again if it doesn't get too off topic from the OP. Going off my list from earlier in the thread here is how I would rank 'em:

Deep South
Alabama 10
Mississippi 10
South Carolina 9.5
Georgia 9
Louisiana 8.5

Mid South
Tennessee 8.0
Arkansas 7.5
Kentucky 7.0

Western South
Oklahoma 6.5
Texas 7.0

Coastal South
North Carolina 7.0
Virginia* 4.5
Florida* 5.0

Border South
West Virginia 4.5

Let me know what ya'll think.