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Come on now. I showed you the distances. You cant seriously tell us that
more people commute between Winchester - Washington-68 miles, San Jose-SF 45 miles + body of water(Sf bay) than between Philly-Trenton 23 miles?
NYC has nothing to do with this the commuting aspect of this argument.Trenton is 68 miles from Manhattan- 23 miles from Philly.
Its incredulous to attempt to use logic by telling us that BOston -Concord (67miles apart)(Bos-Providence-41 miles) are part of the same metro but Philadlephia-Trenton (23 miles apart) Philadlephia-Allentown(44 miles) are not.
Lets try and keep it fair here.
I'm ok with that, but must Philly residents play this card, wether to make it fair or not, every time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adavi215
I think CSA is a good measurement for the overall influence a city has over a region. I think one area, however, where the CSA is problematic is with Phily and NYC. I remember visiting family in Trenton and we would go constantly back and forth between Yardley, PA and Trenton, but Trenton is part of NYC CSA. I found that odd.
Well, Ive always preferred MSA as the standard for comparisons, as CSA's have more variables than MSA's, but to each his own..
one nitpick though...the Bay Area isn't made up of 3 MSAs, but 6 MSAs:
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont (SF, Alameda, San Mateo, Marin, Contra Costa counties)
San Jose-Santa Clara-Sunnyvale (Santa Clara and San Benito Counties)
Vallejo-Fairfield (Solano County)
Santa Rosa-Petaluma (Sonoma County)
Napa (Napa County)
Santa Cruz-Watsonville (Santa Cruz County)
Good nitpick, though aren't SF/East Bay/San Jose far more integrated than the others?
This argument over CSAs and MSAs are a good start, but these are arbitrary and simple definitions applied to a much more complex idea. Neither of them are perfect since so many cities have such different circumstances.
It seems like we're breaking them down to:
the strength of the metropolitan regional identity (Bay Area and Los Angeles),
distance from other major cities and its resulting overlap (Philly and NYC, Chicago and Milwaukee, DC and Baltimore),
polycentric layouts within metros (Bay Area),
ease/length of commute within these regions (NYC's huge metro that is strongly connected through commuter rail)
The MSA might make a lot of sense for cities that are fairly isolated from those of others such as Houston, DFW, and Atlanta but make less sense when applied to cities with aforementioned circumstances.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-17-2010 at 04:06 AM..
I think CSA is a good measurement for the overall influence a city has over a region. I think one area, however, where the CSA is problematic is with Phily and NYC. I remember visiting family in Trenton and we would go constantly back and forth between Yardley, PA and Trenton, but Trenton is part of NYC CSA. I found that odd.
The MSA is the best measurement of the influence of a core city. The CSA is a farce, something the chamber of commerce can use to overinflate its importance. The CSA also undermines the immense importance of the historic big core cities like NYC-Chi and to a lesser degree Philadelphia Boston and Detroit.Metros whose existence grew around a singular core city.
Baltimore developed before Washington, not because of Washington. And on and on.
I think one area, however, where the CSA is problematic is with Phily and NYC. I remember visiting family in Trenton and we would go constantly back and forth between Yardley, PA and Trenton, but Trenton is part of NYC CSA. I found that odd.
Trenton not being part of Philly metro exposes the metro designation status. Egregious and has more to do with federally subsidized cost of living allowances than it does commuting patterns.
Baltimore developed before Washington, not because of Washington.
That is true, but the explosion of DC over the past couple of decades has undoubtedly had a strong affect on Baltimore. I certainly don't view Baltimore as an extension of DC, but the two economies are unquestionably linked. As development continues to occur along I-95 between the two cities, the lines between the two will become increasingly blurred.
The MSA is the best measurement of the influence of a core city. The CSA is a farce, something the chamber of commerce can use to overinflate its importance. The CSA also undermines the immense importance of the historic big core cities like NYC-Chi and to a lesser degree Philadelphia Boston and Detroit.Metros whose existence grew around a singular core city.
Baltimore developed before Washington, not because of Washington. And on and on.
We'll agree to disagree. I understand your point, but I don't think you see mine. When I say CSA I refer to influence, the MSA is the true size of the city and its suburbs. I view the urban area as the size of "municipal" city. Make sense?
That is true, but the explosion of DC over the past couple of decades has undoubtedly had a strong affect on Baltimore. I certainly don't view Baltimore as an extension of DC, but the two economies are unquestionably linked. As development continues to occur along I-95 between the two cities, the lines between the two will become increasingly blurred.
They cant be anymore blurred than Trenton and Philadelphia which are basically across the river from each other yet arent counted in the same MSA let alone the CMSA.
They cant be anymore blurred than Trenton and Philadelphia which are basically across the river from each other yet arent counted in the same MSA let alone the CMSA.
Well, that may be, but I was responding only to your comment about DC and Baltimore.
The MSA is the best measurement of the influence of a core city. The CSA is a farce, something the chamber of commerce can use to overinflate its importance. The CSA also undermines the immense importance of the historic big core cities like NYC-Chi and to a lesser degree Philadelphia Boston and Detroit.Metros whose existence grew around a singular core city.
Baltimore developed before Washington, not because of Washington. And on and on.
The problem is that you assume if one designation is wrong, then they must all be wrong when that clearly isn't the case. In the West Coast, the two major metropolitan areas (LA and SF) clearly have areas attached to them, that only grew BECAUSE of them, not be apart of the technical MSA because of some government definition. Whether you like it or not, realities are much different than the way government defines metro areas.
You state that SF is 45 miles away from SJ, therefore isn't part of the metro area. Well, what about how far away Milpitas is away from Fremont? Or how about East Palo Alto to Palo Alto? There are hundreds upon thousands of commuters that commute between Santa Clara County (or at your insistence, San Jose MSA) and San Mateo and Alameda Counties (or San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont MSA). In fact, by all statistics, all THESE commuters pass the % of how much it takes to become an MSA! You assume that it must be between SF and SJ, when in fact most people in the Bay Area don't even live in SF or SJ!
You think every single Bay Area poster is lying? Have you even ever been to the Bay Area before to know what its like? Try commuting down 101, 280, 880, or 680 on any given day and you'll WISH they were two separate metro areas. In fact, the MSA line goes right through an apartment complex in Milpitas/Fremont! Here's your nice little MSA line:
Or how about the thousands upon thousands of commuters in the Inland Empire practically living on the 60, 10, 210, and 91. Not very many people in SoCal actually think that the Inland Empire is in a different metropolitan area than LA and OC. In fact, they aren't very geographically separated from the rest of the LA area, unlike SF and SJ.
Anyways, if you want to pump up Philadelphia, that's fine. Just don't be surprised by the results. Even if Philadelphia is bigger than Washington DC, it still won't make it more important because Washington is the nation's capital. People can even argue that Washington is even more important than NYC, but I won't make that one. Washington isn't important because it adds Baltimore, but because of its real power it has over the rest of our lives whether we like it or not. If you want to add Trenton, add Trenton by all means. The results will still be exactly the same. All that bravado for nothing.
Last edited by Lifeshadower; 02-17-2010 at 08:57 AM..
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