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Old 07-02-2014, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,993 posts, read 10,190,713 times
Reputation: 4407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Right, Flint is just as bad as advertised.

Stockton and Cleveland, I believe, pop up quite a bit as high crime cities (and I know first-hand about Rockford). Atlanta has bad areas, and I think that's known. CT cities and Twin Cities are a good call, many TC boosters on here completely skip over the fact that there are lots of problems, and at one point it was commonly called "Murderapolis" due to high crime.
I'm a "Twin Cities Booster" but don't ignore the city's crime issues. That being said, all of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. Minneapolis, St. Louis, DC, among other cities all have very small municipal boundaries (60 sq. miles or less for all), so all of the crime is concentrated in a much smaller area than a city like say LA, Houston, or NYC, and as such there are less crime-free areas to dilute the data, so to speak.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,993 posts, read 10,190,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Something that people have to think about with this is that if a city can or has annexed unincorporated, suburban communities within its city limits versus cities that has had fixed boundaries for decades, it can skew the rate higher for cities in the latter category. So, in a way, the metro area may have to be considered to a degree due not only to that fact, but in some cases, the crime may be more spread out in different areas as well.
You beat me to it, I agree!
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,993 posts, read 10,190,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCrest182 View Post
Chicago obviously is not as bad as the media says it is, crime # over all, it's bad, but per capita rate, it's REALLY low. But, Detroit is actually really bad. Much lower pop, but still very high crime rate.
I see that Flint -- like Gary and E STL -- has lost a significant portion of its population since 1990, whether it's whites or blacks who are fleeing. Flint may have some redeeming qualities about it but the fact remains that it is one of THE most violent U.S. metros, and if it doesn't seem that way to you doesn't necessarily hide that fact.

People perceive Flint to have high crime, and it DOES have high crime....the highest, in many instances. To me, that's not what the OP was looking for, but maybe you're right and he/she was looking for places that SEEMED to be better/worse than their facts suggest. I took it to mean the opposite: what cities are statistically better/worse than what people perceive them to be.

Isn't Michael Moore from Flint? What he states in that documentary isn't exactly all roses for Flint but most/all of it is based on a reality that paints Flint as a dangerous place.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
7,010 posts, read 11,975,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycjowww View Post
What's so clear about it?
What's so clear about it? Obviously you haven't seen much in the way of government subsidized housing. There is a difference between cookie cutter villa suburban homes that people purchase and the brightly colored two story homes in small lots all stacked right next to each other. I've seen these in many cities. They have pretty strict and rigid guidelines you have to follow to be able to live in them, and usually you must be below the poverty line to be able to live in them.
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
7,010 posts, read 11,975,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Blah blah blah. You said this:



The reality is this:



Admit you were wrong and move on. That's what adults do.

Here I am, addressing the OP directly: Flint doesn't qualify for this thread, considering it's known as one of the most crime-ridden communities in the entire country, and it also is one of the most crime-ridden communities in the entire country. Have you been there? I have. It's bad. All over town, it is not a nice place to live. I have a friend who grew up there. Very depressed city, very violent, regardless of your "point" that it's less black than ESL or Gary.
Well here's the difference in Flint vs other cities. Flint in many ways is very much like a mini Detroit. It is its own metropolitan area with a decaying city core and extremely high murder rate. It's about 62 people per 100,000, which is EXTREMELY high. However, outside of Flint I would wager to say that the suburbs in metro Flint are not so bad. I do agree though, it's a city known as being very crime ridden, the difference in Flint vs these other horrible cities is that Flint is not nearly as abandoned as say Camden, Gary, or East St. Louis. Flint actually has a decent downtown still unlike Gary and East St. Louis which are basically ghost towns.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CCrest182 View Post
Of course there are nicer parts of both cities. I was referring to the downtown though, which basically shows the true colors and reflects off of a city as a whole, for the most part. A thriving downtown is good. Downtown Flint looks almost IMO better than Downtown Detroit, it has multiple restaurants and businesses operating, and I don't mean the type you'd find in the ghetto. I mean real middle to upscale casual restaurants, as well as new apartment buildings. Downtown Gary has almost no businesses except for that resource center, a couple of boarded up hair salons and a small old diner, and the convention center (which is also boarded up, might I remind you).

BTW, I certainly wouldn't call the first plot you put in East St Louis a "nice pocket" . The houses look small, the lawns look terribly treated, and there appears to be graffiti on the stop sign. The second plot looks fine, though these aren't residences where rich people or middle class families live. These are newly gentrified housing payed for by the government, and these could be found in any 'hood in America really, that doesn't say much, especially given these are only a few blocks out of several others that truly are terrible. Gary does also have some nicer areas, but these areas are normally right across the street from another area that looks like hell. The only true nice "part" of Gary is the far northeast corner, known as "Miller Beach". The section along the lake is almost a vacation spot for some Chicagoans, but still, even here there is lots of crime.

Another tid bit, Gary is around 83% black and East St Louis is 97% black, which means both cities have witnessed massive amounts of white flight, and on top of that, the black population too is fleeing there. The current pop in Gary is around 77k and East St Louis is 26k, both populations have been dropping for decades and continue to drop. Flint has around 100k people living there.

Flint on the other hand certainly is more diverse, with 53% being black, and 41% being white. It's very bad if a big city is almost entirely one race, regardless of that race, and if there's one thing the stats show they show that it is diverse, and has not experienced "white flight".
I agree with all of your post except for downtown Flint vs downtown Detroit. Downtown Detroit is one of the nicest and safest parts of the city and has always been undergoing some serious rennovations and has always seen a great influx of money. There are even young white yuppies moving into downtown Detroit gentrifying the area, can't say the same is true in Flint. Downtown Detroit actually looks like a nice city, just an old city. Flint has already demolished a couple of its towers.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee
3,453 posts, read 4,530,110 times
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Downtown Detroit isn't scary to me at all. I've hung out there a good amount of times. Totally agreed - I don't think he's familiar with either of these Michigan cities. Flint itself is bad, regardless of what the "suburbs" are like. There are nice towns/areas within 15 miles of ESL and Gary as well. This is about the city itself.

Agreed on the small-area metro numbers Min-Chi-Cbus, it really can skew perceptions! That said, Minneapolis does qualify for this thread, as crime is worse there than the general perception of it, which is an unrealistic safe-haven in the middle of Minnesota Nice. It's a big city.

This whole Flint deal goes back to politics - this person doesn't like Moore politically and tried to take a shot at him (???). It's right there in the quote. Man do I wish the political angles would stay in the political forums so we could simply talk about cities on this one. Clearly, Flint does not qualify as a city less dangerous than its reputation since it's factually one of the most dangerous cities in the country.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:14 AM
 
93,326 posts, read 123,972,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCrest182 View Post
The only thing keeping Gary from looking like part of Iraq are a few redeveloped buildings. Other than that, it's pretty bad. Remember, this is *downtown* Gary, not just any ordinary street.
Gary's Miller/Miller Beach area is actually pretty solid for much of that neighborhood. Here is a census tract in that area: Census Tract 010100 in Lake County, Indiana

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-02-2014 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:30 AM
 
1,512 posts, read 2,364,503 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
That second picture you posted of East St. Louis is government subsidized housing, hope you realize that. They are nice houses, but the people living in them are dirt poor, and the crime rate in the area is probably still relatively high.

Not saying by a broad stroke or anything, but I'm betting Gary has nice neighborhoods overall.
I didn't know the second picture was subsidized housing. I'm just saying that both of those towns also have blocks that might be visually nicer than other blocks. I would also think that all those streets I posted might still be lower income and still have crime problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCrest182 View Post
BTW, I certainly wouldn't call the first plot you put in East St Louis a "nice pocket" . The houses look small, the lawns look terribly treated, and there appears to be graffiti on the stop sign. The second plot looks fine, though these aren't residences where rich people or middle class families live. These are newly gentrified housing payed for by the government, and these could be found in any 'hood in America really, that doesn't say much, especially given these are only a few blocks out of several others that truly are terrible. Gary does also have some nicer areas, but these areas are normally right across the street from another area that looks like hell. The only true nice "part" of Gary is the far northeast corner, known as "Miller Beach". The section along the lake is almost a vacation spot for some Chicagoans, but still, even here there is lots of crime.
Yeah, some cities might have more run-down neighborhoods than others, but its not like ESTL and Gary don't lack areas that look visually nicer than others. Also, the first ESTL link might be more run-down than the second link and other areas, but it still looks better than some of the other dilapidated ESTL blocks. Some of the people there just need to do a little landscaping like shown here:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=East+...2,,0,4.65&z=21

Quote:
Another tid bit, Gary is around 83% black and East St Louis is 97% black, which means both cities have witnessed massive amounts of white flight, and on top of that, the black population too is fleeing there. The current pop in Gary is around 77k and East St Louis is 26k, both populations have been dropping for decades and continue to drop. Flint has around 100k people living there.

Flint on the other hand certainly is more diverse, with 53% being black, and 41% being white. It's very bad if a big city is almost entirely one race, regardless of that race, and if there's one thing the stats show they show that it is diverse, and has not experienced "white flight".
Stockton and Camden are also diverse, while places like Portland are 73% White. That doesn't mean that Flint, Stockton or Camden have more potential than Portland.
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Old 07-02-2014, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,752 posts, read 2,406,352 times
Reputation: 3155
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Blah blah blah. You said this:



The reality is this:



Admit you were wrong and move on. That's what adults do.

Here I am, addressing the OP directly: Flint doesn't qualify for this thread, considering it's known as one of the most crime-ridden communities in the entire country, and it also is one of the most crime-ridden communities in the entire country. Have you been there? I have. It's bad. All over town, it is not a nice place to live. I have a friend who grew up there. Very depressed city, very violent, regardless of your "point" that it's less black than ESL or Gary.
The question to me sounded more like which cities have worse reputations despite their crime rate. And I don't need to be there to see there is a nice downtown, nice and redeveloped parts, and parts that are worse than others. Glad we live in a day and age of Google Maps where you don't need to go to a certain place to find it's good and bad parts. And your experience is an anecdote if you didn't live there, and dependent on where in Flint your friend lived, her/his experiences are also anecdotes. Flint is not bad in all parts, you can't tell me that downtown area thriving with new businesses is "depressed". Are there blocks there that look terrible? I'm sure of it. Does that mean it's all out bad? Nope. Every city has it's issues with crime. I'm sure most of Flint's crime is concentrated, just in those concentrated areas it's probably very bad.



Alright, u got me. Flint has a high crime rate. But there are worse cities.
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Old 07-02-2014, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
7,010 posts, read 11,975,078 times
Reputation: 5813
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Downtown Detroit isn't scary to me at all. I've hung out there a good amount of times. Totally agreed - I don't think he's familiar with either of these Michigan cities. Flint itself is bad, regardless of what the "suburbs" are like. There are nice towns/areas within 15 miles of ESL and Gary as well. This is about the city itself.

Agreed on the small-area metro numbers Min-Chi-Cbus, it really can skew perceptions! That said, Minneapolis does qualify for this thread, as crime is worse there than the general perception of it, which is an unrealistic safe-haven in the middle of Minnesota Nice. It's a big city.

This whole Flint deal goes back to politics - this person doesn't like Moore politically and tried to take a shot at him (???). It's right there in the quote. Man do I wish the political angles would stay in the political forums so we could simply talk about cities on this one. Clearly, Flint does not qualify as a city less dangerous than its reputation since it's factually one of the most dangerous cities in the country.
It is. Unfortunately Flint may fall out of the ranking for the most deadly cities from here on out, because most of these studies require the city to be over 100,000, and Flint was at 102k in 2010, probably under 100k by now. I know Gary fell out of rotation since its population lost over 20k in the 2000-2010 Census.

I'll reenforce what cities I think don't get a reputation for being as dangerous as what they really are.

New Orleans Louisiana
Jackson Mississippi
Atlanta Georgia
Memphis Tennessee
Oakland California
St. Louis Missouri
Phoenix Arizona (especially in burglaries and car theft)
Birmingham Alabama

Some cities that are criticized too harshly

Chicago Illinois
Washington D.C.
Cincinnati Ohio
Indianapolis Indiana
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