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being from philadelphia, i will offer my objective opinion having been to both kc and stl (i am currently in med school at wash. u. in st. louis). both have strengths and weaknesses, and they are two completely different types of cities. kansas city is more townish than st. louis, with lower density neighborhoods and a younger building stock and population. st louis is a significantly larger urban area, with more infrastructure to go with it: more and better universities, better pro sports atmosphere overall, better parks, more diverse housing stock, better public transportation, more stuff. kc's city market is disappointing, i'm sorry. you may be able to spend a lively hour there, but it is a sanitized version of an authentic urban farmers market. conversely, soulard market in st. louis is one of the best of its kind in the country, and has resisted efforts to gentrify it. soulard market is better than city market. period. on the flipside, kansas city has a more efficient government structure, more regional cooperation, a more optimistic populace and a more visible enthusiasm for visual arts. st louis is an old model city like its counterparts in the industrial midwest and northeast. kansas city is a western town that with less of an establishment culture.
st louis is of a different ilk entirely. it is older, more seasoned, more substantial than kansas city. kc more appropriately compares to columbus and indianapolis. st. louis is more similar to pittsburgh and baltimore.
both are great places.
I really think you can't speak on KC... for the most part you said a lot of untrue things like KCMO pointed out.
KC doesn't have an efficient government at the moment, we don't have good regional cooperation, and the biggest problem with KC that I seee is that more people NOT from KC realize how nice of things and what we offer here, then actual residents... as much as some people complain about P&L being canned, it's been great for helping more people from the burbs see what KC has to offer...
Our urban core is also very dense... the Population of Downtown KC in 2005 was around 16,300... this is before P&L happened, and they have added a lot more housnig since then, with a density at the time of 5617 people per sq/mile.
Once again, that was 5 years ago, before many changes in downtown were completed. With the rate of growth (it was estimated KC population less then 10k in 2000) it is likely that at least 20,000 people live downtown now, at least very close to that #. The density also would have increased. STL downtown in 2009 was 11,800. That makes it almost half as populated as KCs downtown.. It will be interesting to see what the census shows when its complete...
^
Your population estimates grow every time I read a post, hilar.
I'm pretty sure you can look up and I've said in most all my post 20,000 in 2010. This was a goal KC was trying to reach, if you look at the populations shown, and consider KC was around or under 10,000 downtown in 2000, the population is growing by nearly 1000/year.
-As of 2007, Downtown has 16,292 permanent residents
-Downtown Kansas City had a density of approximately 5,617 inhabitants per square mile
If KC had less then 10k residents in 2000 downtown, then at 2007 had 16,292, then its very close to growing at 1000/per year. The data for 2007 was most likely from the previous years end or mid year 2007 but unfortunatly I can't find anything to prove this).
2007 is when P&L opened, that has brought even more people downtown, and a lot more housing has opened as well as old warehouses converted to living space.
I'll admit on double checking I was off on the year (2005 was the estimate for density not population, which is 2007). I have consistantly said if the rate maintains KC downtown population this year should be 20000 or near that #. Search my old post and look...
The fact remains the same, KC has more people living downtown and its growing at a quicker rate then STL. In 2 years ago we had 4500 more people downtown then STL had in 2009. Once again if the rates hold steady, 2009 we more then likely had 6500 more. If STL grew at another 6% rate this year STL would have a population of: 12508. If downtown KC grew at 10% it would be 20121.... or as I said.. nearly twice the downtown population of STL. But we won't know until the #s come out for sure... once again though it doesn't change the facts its growing faster and has a larger population.
Who cares if 5000 more people live in one downtown over another. That means next to nothing.
STL metro has 800,000 more people than KC metro, better beer and better sports.
STL FTW
I will take 5k more downtown residents than 800k more suburban residents any day of the week in any city/metro. 4 million people could live outside 270 and that would change nothing although 25,000 people living in a downtown vs 10,000 makes a HUGE difference in how a city feels.
BTW, better beer is debatable. KC is all about Boulevard Beer, which I think is pretty good and sure StL is a top MLB town, but a somewhat flaky NHL town and a terrible NFL town.
I still think KC is just as much of an MLB town with a bad team. As big of a Cards town that StL is, I can see 10k out there on a weeknight if the team sucked as bad as the Royals for 25 years, just like I saw last night in Baltimore (2k of them were KC fans).
Nobody knows what's it's like to be a Royals fan and for a team that bad for that long in a metro of only 2 million to still draw 20k a game says something. Few other towns would still support a team after 25 years of horrible baseball. StL "might" be one of them, but the way the fans can jump off bandwagons for your other teams, I don't think StL is really all that different than any other city. Put the Royals in any other city and they would NOT average 20k a game today. Probably under 10k.
You guys love to talk about your size. 2.8 million people! Well, you don't compare to cities like Denver and Minneapolis, you have the metro population of Denver or Minneapolis but in reality, you compare more to a Kansas City (with more suburbs), regardless of how many people live in St Charles County or Metro East and regardless of how large StLouis City once was.
Detroit is bigger than StLouis, but I would say StLouis has more going on. Detroit has more people in the burbs, but their downtown and urban core still leave much to be desired compared to StL.
Same deal with StL / KC only in KC and StL they end up more as a tie then one really beating the other even though one is 800k bigger.
Which BTW is even somewhat debateble considering the STL MSA is freaking bigger than KC's and KC's doesn't even include places like Lawrence which IS part of the KC area.
I will take 5k more downtown residents than 800k more suburban residents any day of the week in any city/metro. 4 million people could live outside 270 and that would change nothing although 25,000 people living in a downtown vs 10,000 makes a HUGE difference in how a city feels.
Hahaha, now its 15,000? You guys are basing these numbers off of census stats that haven't even been released yet. Fact remains that STL metro is bigger than KC metro, by quite a bit.
And I like the idea of going downtown for sporting events rather than some cow field.
I will take 5k more downtown residents than 800k more suburban residents any day of the week in any city/metro. 4 million people could live outside 270 and that would change nothing although 25,000 people living in a downtown vs 10,000 makes a HUGE difference in how a city feels.
BTW, better beer is debatable. KC is all about Boulevard Beer, which I think is pretty good and sure StL is a top MLB town, but a somewhat flaky NHL town and a terrible NFL town.
I still think KC is just as much of an MLB town with a bad team. As big of a Cards town that StL is, I can see 10k out there on a weeknight if the team sucked as bad as the Royals for 25 years, just like I saw last night in Baltimore (2k of them were KC fans).
Nobody know what's it's like to be a Royals fan and for a team that bad for that long in a metro of only 2 million to still draw 20k a game says something. Few others towns would still support a team, StL "might" be one of them, but the way the fans can jump off bandwagons for your other teams, I don't think StL is really all the different than any other city.
We have Schlafly, Ofallon, Mattingly, Buffalo and that macro brewery down on Pestalozzi. We have more to choose from.
The Cards have always drawn well, just look at the 70's or 90's when the team sucked and they still drew 25-30k per game. And for being a terrible NFL town we have been to the SB more recently than the Chiefs.
Hahaha, now its 15,000? You guys are basing these numbers off of census stats that haven't even been released yet. Fact remains that STL metro is bigger than KC metro, by quite a bit.
And I like the idea of going downtown for sporting events rather than some cow field.
There is more people living in Downtown KC period. More of the structures are actually occupied. There is actually almost nothing left to renovate in the entire Downtown area. Even a lot of the office buildings downtown are now lofts and condos.
StL does not have as many people living downtown. How can you even argue that if you have been to both cities?
That's probably why KC can support one of the nicest urban grocers in the country.
Hahaha, now its 15,000? You guys are basing these numbers off of census stats that haven't even been released yet. Fact remains that STL metro is bigger than KC metro, by quite a bit.
And I like the idea of going downtown for sporting events rather than some cow field.
I'm pretty sure that # was KCMO just throwing out random #s....
Thats the thing, KC has a downtown thats lived in, has residents, growing at a faster size and yeah its important to mention the downtown rather then the metro area (KC doesn't include St. Joe or Lawerence in the metro, even tho they are basically part of it)... as the point of my post was in response to our urban core... why would I bring up the suburbs for that?
So yeah you go downtown for a sporting event, KC has people going downtown for a lot more then just that... and a lot more people living there and I'll say it once again... growing a lot faster.
We have Schlafly, Ofallon, Mattingly, Buffalo and that macro brewery down on Pestalozzi. We have more to choose from.
The Cards have always drawn well, just look at the 70's or 90's when the team sucked and they still drew 25-30k per game. And for being a terrible NFL town we have been to the SB more recently than the Chiefs.
Have the Cards ever had multiple seasons of 100 year losses back to back? Year in and year out, 95-105 losses a year. Not even so much as competing since 1985? Seriously? How can you compare?
you are right, the rams have done more than the chiefs, so where are the fans? While KC has filled an 80,000 seat stadium again in a smaller market for a team that really has not done a whole lot since the 1960's.
BTW, no cows near the stadiums, just an industrial area off the interstate. It sucks, but then you look at downtown StL. Is the area around Busch like the area around stadiums in Denver, San Diego, San Francisco, Baltimore etc? Nope. You have had 50 years to do SOMETHING around that stadium and you have what, a couple of lame sports bars? OK, you win!
Nice softball field though! Better than another 14 story parking garage!
StL people, I love StL, just having a little fun now.
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