44111 vs 44105 (Cleveland, Lakewood, Garfield Heights: real estate, 2013, rental)

[benkevan]

I have been looking at purchasing some rental property in both the 44111 and 44105 areas. Cleveland is obviously at a tipping point of where they can go moving forward. There are going to be people who feel strongly going both ways, so I am not looking for speculative views, but peoples opinions on the 2 areas indicated in the title.

The 44105 area is Garfield Heights, and I understand it isn't the best of areas. But does it have much more to lose? Does anyone have an idea if they'll ever redoing the mall they were doing around there?

Is 44015 or 44111 at a bigger risk of destruction when CLE decides they want to lower the # houses it has and make some nicer / vacant land?

Or would you just stay away from Cleveland all together?

I'm hoping that the afford-ability of Cleveland (if they stop raising property taxes) entices companies to house manufacturing within the city limits (resurrection of the rust belt). Or will Health Care be what revitalizes CLE?

[5Lakes]

If there is going to be gentrification of Cleveland's neighborhoods in the future I think it will occur around downtown, around University Circle, and close to the trendier west side neighborhoods. That being said I would go with the 44111 area over 44105. It is close to the Red Line rapid train and not too far from entertainment hubs like Lakewood, West Park, Tremont, and Ohio City. Lakewood and West Park have always been stable, and Ohio City, Tremont, and Detroit-Shoreway/Gordan Square are in the process of gentrification to varying degrees.

Garfield Heights is wedged in between the declining Slavic Village to the north and declining Maple Heights to the east, so I would be worried about that aspect. Although it's not too bad at this point in time (except for the portion north of Broadway). I just don't see any pressures there for long term gentrification because it's not in close proximity to other areas on the upswing. I think at best Garfield can hope to stay a mostly blue collar type town, but I think there is a real good chance of it becoming ghetto in 10-20 years. One advantage it would have is avoiding Cleveland city schools, but at this point I don't think anybody is exactly moving to Garfield for great schools either.

[AndyF667]

44105 is Slavic Village (and some Newburgh Hts). Garfield Heights is 44125.
There is no mall in Slavic Village.
They havent raised property taxes in Cleveland in years. I dont suspect they will any time soon either.
I suggest you visit the neighborhoods before investing.
Good luck!

[benkevan]

Originally Posted by AndyF667

44105 is Slavic Village (and some Newburgh Hts). Garfield Heights is 44125.
There is no mall in Slavic Village.
They havent raised property taxes in Cleveland in years. I dont suspect they will any time soon either.
I suggest you visit the neighborhoods before investing.
Good luck!

There are several parts in Garfield Heights that touch in the 44105 area. Look at Maple Row, Christine Avenue to name a few.

[AndyF667]

I stand corrected.
I'd seriously consider visiting these areas before you invest.

[Peregrine]

44111 > 44105

[benkevan]

Originally Posted by AndyF667

I stand corrected.
I'd seriously consider visiting these areas before you invest.

Yeah.. I plan to (but maybe not with the first property). I can easily absorb a loss of a single property without being heart broken. I don't want to be around the area in Winter though. I understand that this is a full speculative recovery style investment, and hope that some manufacturing is brought back into the US, and that the rust belt would start spinning again (although they'd have to lower their property taxes, although their afford-ability index is still outstanding).

I know Cleveland is at a tipping point. I don't want to talk myself out of an investment by looking at surrounding areas without fully knowing them. People in my area would say "I'd never live there" because 5 miles down the freeway, it's completely ghetto. (ok maybe 8 miles). The city next to my primary residence is Vallejo California, and they recently (2 years now) filed Chapter 9 BK. Driving through there, would make me NOT want to live where I do now (which is a very nice area).

I do plan on it, just to really see the culture and meet the people of OH

[Marty711]

Originally Posted by benkevan

Yeah.. I plan to (but maybe not with the first property). I can easily absorb a loss of a single property without being heart broken. I don't want to be around the area in Winter though. I understand that this is a full speculative recovery style investment, and hope that some manufacturing is brought back into the US, and that the rust belt would start spinning again (although they'd have to lower their property taxes, although their afford-ability index is still outstanding).

I know Cleveland is at a tipping point. I don't want to talk myself out of an investment by looking at surrounding areas without fully knowing them. People in my area would say "I'd never live there" because 5 miles down the freeway, it's completely ghetto. (ok maybe 8 miles). The city next to my primary residence is Vallejo California, and they recently (2 years now) filed Chapter 9 BK. Driving through there, would make me NOT want to live where I do now (which is a very nice area).

I do plan on it, just to really see the culture and meet the people of OH

Quite honestly, and I don't mean to be harsh, but absentee landlords are one of the reasons that the Garfield Hts./Slavic Village areas have declined so much. I am very familiar with those neighborhoods but I'd be hesitant to give any advice to anyone that's only looking to make a quick buck. A good landlord doesn't disappear for a few months just because it's the winter time.

[benkevan]

Originally Posted by Marty711

Quite honestly, and I don't mean to be harsh, but absentee landlords are one of the reasons that the Garfield Hts./Slavic Village areas have declined so much. I am very familiar with those neighborhoods but I'd be hesitant to give any advice to anyone that's only looking to make a quick buck. A good landlord doesn't disappear for a few months just because it's the winter time.

I would be utilizing local resources to provide adequate property management. Most likely better service than local landlords that don't visit their properties. But to slightly classify me as a "slumlord" without knowing my motives is quite troublesome.

I'm not in it for a "quick buck". I am utilizing the market as a diversification method of long term retirement plans, and am switching from putting a certain % into 401k, to real estate instead. I have done my homework, and have found very trusted and a highly recommended property management company that will help me keep the properties in great working order.

I plan on providing good living conditions, and will use any extra to bring the house up to better living conditions (even if it lowers my overall ROI, since this is a LONG term investment for retirement diversification).

I do hope that the rust belt will come back, and think that it can with the current afford-ability index which Ohio provides.

[Marty711]

Originally Posted by benkevan

I would be utilizing local resources to provide adequate property management. Most likely better service than local landlords that don't visit their properties. But to slightly classify me as a "slumlord" without knowing my motives is quite troublesome.

I'm not in it for a "quick buck". I am utilizing the market as a diversification method of long term retirement plans, and am switching from putting a certain % into 401k, to real estate instead. I have done my homework, and have found very trusted and a highly recommended property management company that will help me keep the properties in great working order.

I plan on providing good living conditions, and will use any extra to bring the house up to better living conditions (even if it lowers my overall ROI, since this is a LONG term investment for retirement diversification).

I do hope that the rust belt will come back, and think that it can with the current afford-ability index which Ohio provides.

Like I posted, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I wouldn't call anybody a slumlord without seeing their properties but I've seen that neighborhood decline thanks to out of town landlords, mortgage people and loan sharks. They helped ruin what was a terrific diverse community. I can tell you that anybody in the community is very weary of out of town investors for those reasons.

If you have found a good management company and are serious about it, then that's great but there's been plenty of empty promises that have been sold to that area, especially Slavic Village. That area in particular is now overrun by crime and vacant houses. Just five years ago, this wasn't the case. So people there are bitter and probably will be for a long time. Count me in as one of the bitter ones so you'll have to excuse my angry commentary on the subject.

I think you need to learn more about the reason as to why the neighborhood has declined. Many will cite out of town people preying on the local residents and taking advantage of them. And some landlords flat out didn't care who moved in or what the property looked like. It spread like a virus. I saw it firsthand. You should be prepared that people will look at you with a weary eye because of these reasons.

Overall, I'm just not too supportive of people buying into the neighborhood just for investment purposes. What happens if that investment isn't realized? Will you abandon the house like so many others have? That's the fear that the community has. That's why I have a weary eye. I've seen it too many times there.

You are more interested in Garfield Heights. That part of the zip is certainly in much better shape than the Slavic Village area that I was referring to. It's not a terrible neighborhood but has been on a steady decline for years as have the surrounding communities. That being said, it's not an area that will be on a real rebound for probably years maybe even decades. There's just too much damage there. There's concerns in Garfield Hts. over cancer rates due to the landfills there. It certainly doesn't help the area's reputation whether true or not. CityView is dead and probably won't ever get back to what it once was or supposed to be. People and businesses were scared away by the methane and cancer rumors. Same goes for the Bridgeview development that was planned across the street. It's sitting partially built, rotting away. I'm not sure which mall you were referring to. There's also Southgate nearby and even Randall Park isn't that far away.