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Old 12-25-2011, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Northfield, MN
766 posts, read 2,029,695 times
Reputation: 504

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Umm, the opposition stemmed mainly from connections to Great Northern Mall and the one in Strongsville. The Red Line isn't connected to anything; it's a reused rail line and was not designed to be convenient. However, the main retail connection it does have is Tower City and look what happened there. Blacks show up in large numbers and whites leave in large numbers; high-end stores close and Payless Shoes and t-shirt shops come in. Hopefully, Gilbert will clean it all out and run the whole complex the way it needs to be done. By the way, there are no stations are located in Lakewood.

How many times do I have to say that this is not what I believe but what the suburban opposition is based on. Next time the topic comes up in a public forum if RTA talks about rail extensions, you will be the go to man when the opposition comes up. The suburbs are what they are, especially on the west side. They don't want blacks out there just like they weren't welcomed on the west side of city; but this has changed as Cleveland empties out.
I find the part of your post where you say "the blacks came in and ruined tower city" fairly racist. It has nothing to do with skin color. It's the fact that surrounding tower city are many impoverished neighborhoods who couldn't support the upscale shops, and not enough suburbanites traveled all the way downtown to shop when there were malls right in the suburbs. It's not like everybody who shops there is black either. Go there some time, you'll find that the crowd is very mixed.
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:06 AM
 
58 posts, read 121,617 times
Reputation: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuyFromCleveland18 View Post
I find the part of your post where you say "the blacks came in and ruined tower city" fairly racist. It has nothing to do with skin color. It's the fact that surrounding tower city are many impoverished neighborhoods who couldn't support the upscale shops, and not enough suburbanites traveled all the way downtown to shop when there were malls right in the suburbs. It's not like everybody who shops there is black either. Go there some time, you'll find that the crowd is very mixed.
You seem to have completely ignored the second paragraph of the post, even though you included it in your quote.

Kamm's didn't say 'the blacks came in and ruined Tower City'; Kamm's said the suburban opposition is based on that perception, and (not for the first time, it sounds like) explicitly added that he/she doesn't share it.
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Old 12-25-2011, 04:32 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,495,295 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuyFromCleveland18 View Post
I find the part of your post where you say "the blacks came in and ruined tower city" fairly racist. It has nothing to do with skin color. It's the fact that surrounding tower city are many impoverished neighborhoods who couldn't support the upscale shops, and not enough suburbanites traveled all the way downtown to shop when there were malls right in the suburbs. It's not like everybody who shops there is black either. Go there some time, you'll find that the crowd is very mixed.
Please do not create quotes that do not exist. Let's see, the grand hoopla with TC in 1990 to gunfire a few weeks back in the food court...enough said.

So, given your logic, why would Forest City build TC at all and include high-end retailers to serve impoverished local residents? (this is Cleveland, it's OK to use the term ''black'' or ''African-Americans'' because it's reality).
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:09 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,495,295 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipp View Post
You seem to have completely ignored the second paragraph of the post, even though you included it in your quote.

Kamm's didn't say 'the blacks came in and ruined Tower City'; Kamm's said the suburban opposition is based on that perception, and (not for the first time, it sounds like) explicitly added that he/she doesn't share it.
Thank you. Refreshing to know someone understands what I'm getting at. It gets annoying whenever race comes up the ''r'' word is thrown out, especially by white suburban or rural white folks. Suburban white kids need to consider that, for the most part, their parents or grandparents left the cities to get away from big, black Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago or pick-your-city here...
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:11 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,495,295 times
Reputation: 2162
Tower City, along with the Arcades and The Galleria, should be the centerpiece of high-end retail in the Cleveland metro area. Crocker Park, South Park, Beachwood and Legacy Village do not want RTA's Red Line connection, trust me.
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:24 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,495,295 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuyFromCleveland18 View Post
I find the part of your post where you say "the blacks came in and ruined tower city" fairly racist. It has nothing to do with skin color. It's the fact that surrounding tower city are many impoverished neighborhoods who couldn't support the upscale shops, and not enough suburbanites traveled all the way downtown to shop when there were malls right in the suburbs. It's not like everybody who shops there is black either. Go there some time, you'll find that the crowd is very mixed.
I see you're 22; you've been raised to use the ''racism'' term whenever race is mentioned; good, bad, discussion, whatever the context, you fall back on racism as the cop-out.
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Northfield, MN
766 posts, read 2,029,695 times
Reputation: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
I see you're 22; you've been raised to use the ''racism'' term whenever race is mentioned; good, bad, discussion, whatever the context, you fall back on racism as the cop-out.
No, I just got the feeling from your post that you were essentially saying that the reason Tower City went down was the fault of the Blacks. Maybe I misread it and you were just making an observation, but that's how it seemed to me when I first read it.
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Old 12-25-2011, 09:16 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,495,295 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuyFromCleveland18 View Post
No, I just got the feeling from your post that you were essentially saying that the reason Tower City went down was the fault of the Blacks. Maybe I misread it and you were just making an observation, but that's how it seemed to me when I first read it.
Chris Rock said it best in describing a city's malls: ''the white mall and the mall white people used to go to". In Cleveland, there is only one mall: TC, a mall white people used to go to. There is only one mall with direct access to city rail transit: TC.

Also, TC is in no way ruined; it just has issues. Let's hope Gilbert turns it around (which I think he will).
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,058 posts, read 6,793,209 times
Reputation: 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Umm, the opposition stemmed mainly from connections to Great Northern Mall and the one in Strongsville. The Red Line isn't connected to anything; it's a reused rail line and was not designed to be convenient. However, the main retail connection it does have is Tower City and look what happened there. Blacks show up in large numbers and whites leave in large numbers; high-end stores close and Payless Shoes and t-shirt shops come in. Hopefully, Gilbert will clean it all out and run the whole complex the way it needs to be done. By the way, there are no stations are located in Lakewood.
The West 117th/Madison station is right on the Cleveland/Lakewood border, and the Triskett station, while technically located in Cleveland, is only a block or so from Lakewood's southern border. So Lakewood is indeed served by rapid transit, if only marginally.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:51 PM
 
3,971 posts, read 4,199,079 times
Reputation: 3979
^Also, the West Blvd station, although well within Cleveland (in a somewhat sketchy area), serves Lakewood with frequent (and 24-hour) buses along Detroit ave.
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