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Old 11-22-2011, 07:06 PM
 
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Having said that in my last post: I will say that Cleveland ethnic heritage in many ways mirrors Chicagos, except that Clevelands ethnic heritage might be a bit more "east-coast" like in that Cleveland has a higher proportion (for a metro its size) of Italian Americans.

Its been said many times, that Clevelands Little Italy is bigger and more authentic than Chicagos Little Italy. Cleveland has the greatest number of Slovenians, Croatians, and Hungarians outside their respecitve countries. With sizeable Polish, Czech, and Ukrainians. As well as Irish.

Cleveland is the really the only city in the midwest outside Chicago to have a concentrated urban neighborhood of Asians in Asiantown, as well as the second largest Puerto Rican community in the midwest outside Chicago.

Although Chicago has obviously a much larger of foreign born, and a higher percetange to, Clevelands ethnic diversity is pretty significant.

While Detroit more than Cleveland grew to a massive size that was closer to that of Chicago up through the late 60s, and today is IMO, the only midwest metro area to have that seemingly endless suburbia similar to Chicago, Cleveland has done quite well keeping its core neighborhoods more vibrant, considering the city is less than half its peak population.

Another thing that gives Cleveland a bit of an east coast feel, is that its eastern suburbs very clearly show the influence of the early days of when it was part of the Connecticut western reserve. IE: Chagrin Falls.

Chicago does also have some suburbs that have that historic heritage along the regions major rivers (Fox and Lower Des Plaines) as well as along some of the train lines. (especially in Chicagos western suburbs).
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:14 PM
 
4,359 posts, read 6,714,241 times
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Originally Posted by andrew61 View Post
Well, all I know is that here in East Lakeview, where I live, a full five miles north of the Loop, quite a few people don't own cars because it's a hassle here, and affordability has nothing to do with it.

I owned a car back when I had to travel to the suburbs five days a week to get to work. After several years of that, I started working downtown where it was easy and convenient to get to via public transportation from where I live. I observed that I was only using my car once every two to three weeks, and even though I could technically "afford" the expense (insurance, garage parking, etc.), I couldn't justify it. I realized the car was costing me an enormous amount of money per trip, all things considered. So I eventually got rid of it. And nowadays there are car-sharing services (Zipcar, I-GO, etc.) in the area which are good for people who only need to use a car occasionally. Still other people I know rent cars, but only on the weekends.

Perhaps in Chicago's less densely-populated areas well away from the lake, it's different. And in many of the suburbs, a car is pretty much a necessity. But that still leaves a pretty enormous chunk of the city -- an area that has a population larger than the entire city of Cleveland -- where it's not only practical, but preferable, to live carfree.
All this is fine. But, if you read what I stated, you would see that I indicated "within the loop" or "within a few blocks of a CTA station. My guess is that, being from E. Lakeview, you are within reasonable proximity to one. Working within the loop makes it even more practical to not use a car. However, the people who don't fall into that category (and many who do) have cars. I'm not saying you can't live car free in Chicago because you certainly can in many areas. However, most people in the Chicagoland area have cars. How else does one explain the traffic jams at 3pm on a Sunday?
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UKUKUK View Post
I keep hearing more and more about new offices here and new offices there, new apartments here and new apartments there... no trouble filling them either...

Who else feels Cleveland is going to be the Chicago of the early 21st century? Maybe not SUCH an explosive city, but it's getting there!

I'm proud, guys. Keep it up.
I don't see how you would compare Cleveland's progress to becoming a Chicago. If that is the case than I would say the downtown area might have density similar to Pittsburgh or Minneapolis. I wouldn't consider Chicago a progressive city at all. I live here now and the only thing that stands out to me is the Loop and areas of the northside like Wicker Park, Bucktown, Lincoln Park, The Gold Coast etc... Much of Chicago looks similar to neighborhood's like Glenville and Kinsman with only a few exceptions... Also, Cleveland to me has more of an East Coast feel... Whenever Im in Cleveland and Im driving down King Blvd through Rockefeller Park I feel like Im in New Jersey or driving down Grand Central Pkwy in Queens and I start looking for the Manhattan skyline until I see the lake and then I remember Im in Ohio.... Rockefeller Park does sort of remind me of Jackson Park where Stony Island separates into Cornell, but also Cleveland is higher above sea level and its more hilly.... Chicago doesn't have an east coast feel to me other than the loop might be similar to Manhattan because of its skyscrapers and when I lived in Edgewater near Loyola next to the redline I felt like I was in Upper Manhattan or a nicer part of the Bronx... Thats just my opinion...
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
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Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
Having said that in my last post: I will say that Cleveland ethnic heritage in many ways mirrors Chicagos, except that Clevelands ethnic heritage might be a bit more "east-coast" like in that Cleveland has a higher proportion (for a metro its size) of Italian Americans.

Its been said many times, that Clevelands Little Italy is bigger and more authentic than Chicagos Little Italy.
Fun fact: Back in the old days, Cleveland had both a "Little Italy" and a "Big Italy". Big Italy was adjacent to downtown.

I'm Italian-American on my dad's side, and IIRC, Big Italy was still around when my dad was a young man. At least I can recall him talking about it.

BIG ITALY - The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andrew61 View Post
If it is, it's got a LONG way to go...
There are a lot of similarities in architecture and culture... I'm happy Cleveland has some Chicago-ishness, but not the overwhelming scale... In that sense, it will probably never BE a Chicago duplicate, but with a lot of Chicago-type things, esp in terms of culture, food and diversity... I'll accept that.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 5Lakes View Post
Well a healthier Cleveland may be a bit Chicago-ish, but I would rather just see it recognized as a healthier Cleveland than a mini-Chicago. I actually think a revitalized Cleveland would be a better place to live since it could in theory offer similar amenities and urban life without the hassle and a with a better geographic location.

That being said Cleveland still has a long ways to go. I think Cleveland needs about 30 more years of steady urban redevelopment and infrastructure improvements before the above mentioned scenario can become a reality. From what I can tell Chicago was doing decades ago what Cleveland is just getting started on to address the decline of the urban core. People mention how Chicago also has horrible ares, which is very true. However, Cleveland needs to work on its good (or potentially good) areas before they offer a Chicago day-to-day living experience on a smaller level.



Yes, the majority of Chicago is not livable without a car. However, the areas of the city that are livable without a car probably contain of about 750k to 1 million people. These areas consist of the neighborhoods around the Loop and much of the north side. There are many people in Chicago who are professional types with good incomes who choose to go without a car because it's not worth having, myself being one of them (although I did have car for much of the time I have lived here). Nobody thinks anything of it either, which is not the case in Cleveland where it would be odd for anyone but a poor person to not have a car.
Chicago's revitalization/redevelopment is concentrated in its core. Chicago's convention and tourist business is the key to its revitalization. I always find it interesting that Chicago is ''booming'' and ''revitalized'' when its population loss was 200,000 from 2000-2010. Chicago's making money off visitor business but its population is declining. Cleveland could replicate Chicago's model in this respect by developing its core to attract tourists and convention business while losing its population. Hopefully, Cleveland can stabilize and even increase its population by 2020.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
Having said that in my last post: I will say that Cleveland ethnic heritage in many ways mirrors Chicagos, except that Clevelands ethnic heritage might be a bit more "east-coast" like in that Cleveland has a higher proportion (for a metro its size) of Italian Americans.

Its been said many times, that Clevelands Little Italy is bigger and more authentic than Chicagos Little Italy. Cleveland has the greatest number of Slovenians, Croatians, and Hungarians outside their respecitve countries. With sizeable Polish, Czech, and Ukrainians. As well as Irish.

Cleveland is the really the only city in the midwest outside Chicago to have a concentrated urban neighborhood of Asians in Asiantown, as well as the second largest Puerto Rican community in the midwest outside Chicago.

Although Chicago has obviously a much larger of foreign born, and a higher percetange to, Clevelands ethnic diversity is pretty significant.

While Detroit more than Cleveland grew to a massive size that was closer to that of Chicago up through the late 60s, and today is IMO, the only midwest metro area to have that seemingly endless suburbia similar to Chicago, Cleveland has done quite well keeping its core neighborhoods more vibrant, considering the city is less than half its peak population.

Another thing that gives Cleveland a bit of an east coast feel, is that its eastern suburbs very clearly show the influence of the early days of when it was part of the Connecticut western reserve. IE: Chagrin Falls.

Chicago does also have some suburbs that have that historic heritage along the regions major rivers (Fox and Lower Des Plaines) as well as along some of the train lines. (especially in Chicagos western suburbs).
I also find Cleveland to have an eastern feel to it, especially the east side and its suburbs. Chagrin Falls is right out of New England. Remember, Cleveland's roots are planted in Connecticut and its core layout (Public Square) is designed to replicate a New England town square.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RioDominicana View Post
Downtown doesn't focus on families, it's mostly a destination and a place where younger people, singles, and empty nesters live. Families don't make up a significant population in most cities' downtowns since most cities usually have poor schools. Cleveland does have a long way to go but the point is it's getting there. Sure we only have some scattered pockets of excitement now but remember when there were virtually no pockets just a few years ago? Cleveland's been hit with problems harder than most cities, it can only improve little by little.

I believe Cleveland's starting to embrace urbanity again. The neighborhoods that actually increased in population and development are the walkable ones fully served by rail and transit (Downtown, UC, Ohio City, Little Italy, etc), even RTA is expanding service because of increased ridership, these are little big steps forward for a city plagued by suburbanization and it's starting somewhere. Also while Chicago was great for the time I lived there, I don't want Cleveland to become another Chicago and I'm quite happy it's not. A lot of people want Cleveland to copy its character from other cities, Cleveland has its own special character and that in itself should be enough to push the city forward.
Amen!
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:46 PM
 
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Need a car?

it's a matter of scale. Given Chicago's bigger, beefier presence, with dense urban neighborhoods and more multi-unit buildings, quite naturally, there are going to be more car-free, non-poor folks than Cleveland. Is Chicago a New York, ... or even a Philly in that sense? Probably not. It's got a lot of wide streets (narrower in close-in North side neighborhoods), and despite the famous el, most of the public lives near CTA bus lines. And yes, even though I've known some Cleveland people without cars, it's more of a hassle here and much more rare among the non-college, non-poor (although, many say college=poor these days)... But Cleveland's urbanized areas are getting stronger by the day... An Ohio City resident, for example, who left 2 years ago and came back to town yesterday, would be shocked at how much it's changed... Consider the nice buzz (not overwhelming), but a big city-ish buzz lower Euclid now has, esp around E. 4th... But consider how the area was 5-10 years ago, esp during construction of the Health Line RTA rapid-transit bus. It's amazing how the area's morphed in such a short time...

... and transit? As folks have noted, RTA's ridership has been so strong these past few years that in the Spring, they are actually ADDING Red Line, Health Line and major bus service... If you live in Ohio City, which as noted has really morphed into a buzzing Bucktown/Wicker park type neighborhood, do you really need a car? The Red Line stops a block from OC's core at the West Side Market, and a bunch of buses pass along Lorain and W. 25, in and out of downtown (just across the Cuyahoga river)... so much so, that there generally is a bus on W. 25 about every 3-5 mins most times of day... And the Lorain and W.25 routes are 24-hour lines... The neighborhood has a ton of restaurants, the West Side Market, a big grocery store a block away (Dave's), hair salons, nick knack shops, a new bike shop and a couple bodega-style joints (among others)... There's growing 24-7 foot traffic on the strip and, again, major shopping (though lacking downtown), you still can bus or rapid to Tower City (2 mins), big boxes like Target (1 being a 10 min bus ride to Steeleyards Commons strip center in the Flats; the other (along with neighbors Home Depot and Staples), a 10 min Red Line Rapid ride to W. 117... or, you love K-Mart (Sears), go a couple stops West to West Park.... or East to U. Circle to get your culture fix on (and U. Circle Uptown shops and apts, is about to explode next spring), ... or the ever popular Shaker Square, along the Blue Green Lines to the East (after you change trains at Tower City)... or hop a bus or train to growing Detroit Shoreway or Edgewater on the West...

... Now, Ohio City resident, ... why is that car so indispensible?
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:10 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,507,065 times
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Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Need a car?

it's a matter of scale. Given Chicago's bigger, beefier presence, with dense urban neighborhoods and more multi-unit buildings, quite naturally, there are going to be more car-free, non-poor folks than Cleveland. Is Chicago a New York, ... or even a Philly in that sense? Probably not. It's got a lot of wide streets (narrower in close-in North side neighborhoods), and despite the famous el, most of the public lives near CTA bus lines. And yes, even though I've known some Cleveland people without cars, it's more of a hassle here and much more rare among the non-college, non-poor (although, many say college=poor these days)... But Cleveland's urbanized areas are getting stronger by the day... An Ohio City resident, for example, who left 2 years ago and came back to town yesterday, would be shocked at how much it's changed... Consider the nice buzz (not overwhelming), but a big city-ish buzz lower Euclid now has, esp around E. 4th... But consider how the area was 5-10 years ago, esp during construction of the Health Line RTA rapid-transit bus. It's amazing how the area's morphed in such a short time...

... and transit? As folks have noted, RTA's ridership has been so strong these past few years that in the Spring, they are actually ADDING Red Line, Health Line and major bus service... If you live in Ohio City, which as noted has really morphed into a buzzing Bucktown/Wicker park type neighborhood, do you really need a car? The Red Line stops a block from OC's core at the West Side Market, and a bunch of buses pass along Lorain and W. 25, in and out of downtown (just across the Cuyahoga river)... so much so, that there generally is a bus on W. 25 about every 3-5 mins most times of day... And the Lorain and W.25 routes are 24-hour lines... The neighborhood has a ton of restaurants, the West Side Market, a big grocery store a block away (Dave's), hair salons, nick knack shops, a new bike shop and a couple bodega-style joints (among others)... There's growing 24-7 foot traffic on the strip and, again, major shopping (though lacking downtown), you still can bus or rapid to Tower City (2 mins), big boxes like Target (1 being a 10 min bus ride to Steeleyards Commons strip center in the Flats; the other (along with neighbors Home Depot and Staples), a 10 min Red Line Rapid ride to W. 117... or, you love K-Mart (Sears), go a couple stops West to West Park.... or East to U. Circle to get your culture fix on (and U. Circle Uptown shops and apts, is about to explode next spring), ... or the ever popular Shaker Square, along the Blue Green Lines to the East (after you change trains at Tower City)... or hop a bus or train to growing Detroit Shoreway or Edgewater on the West...

... Now, Ohio City resident, ... why is that car so indispensible?
Hopefully new commercial and retail development will occur even closer to RTA rail stations. It would be great if that huge parcel at Berea & Madison (site of the old WestVaco plant) would be developed into commercial/retail and even residential with direct access to W 117th Street Red Line station.
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