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Old 11-27-2011, 11:32 AM
 
5,916 posts, read 12,291,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west336 View Post
I'm sorry, I'm talking only about those that lived in Public Housing projects. I did a lot of community work in the Chicago Housing Projects and, at least when I was at Cabrini Green, I was told the residents had nowhere to live in the city right before the buildings were about to be torn down. My cousin had a friend from Cabrini and he's in Rockford, IL now. I've heard a lot more accounts of this same type of thing, and countless articles about how those in the projects have had to flee the city to find housing.
That very well may be true, as anyone who is getting out of the projects might as well take the opportunity and start over, and get out of a city, where the only areas that would have been affordable for them were other bad ghetto areas.

In that case then, Chicago would be losing AA people that aspire for a better life elsewhere.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,530 posts, read 11,261,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
That very well may be true, as anyone who is getting out of the projects might as well take the opportunity and start over, and get out of a city, where the only areas that would have been affordable for them were other bad ghetto areas.

In that case then, Chicago would be losing AA people that aspire for a better life elsewhere.
No denying that.....just wanted to be clear on project demolition and what the city "did" to those people (not cool....lots of sad people).
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
16,217 posts, read 16,706,403 times
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While it may not always be a fair or fun process for the residents who have to move, having concentrated poverty in any part of a city has been shown over and over again to do far more bad than good, both for the residents of the public housing and for the city overall. I think the days of public housing projects, overall, is over. They were huge failures in every city they were built, and having low-income families spread throughout a city is actually beneficial to everyone involved.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,058 posts, read 6,805,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west336 View Post
I'm sorry, I'm talking only about those that lived in Public Housing projects. I did a lot of community work in the Chicago Housing Projects and, at least when I was at Cabrini Green, I was told the residents had nowhere to live in the city right before the buildings were about to be torn down. My cousin had a friend from Cabrini and he's in Rockford, IL now. I've heard a lot more accounts of this same type of thing, and countless articles about how those in the projects have had to flee the city to find housing.
Some of those upscale residential developments that went up in the vicinity of Cabrini-Green in recent years did make a certain percentage of their housing units available to low-income people. The goal was to provide a mixed-income development. However (and this is anecdotai, I know) I heard that many of the low-income people who were being displaced from Cabrini-Green didn't want to live in them. They were afraid that they wouldn't be well accepted by the other residents, and if there were any incidents of crime or vandalism in the new developments that they would immediately be blamed for them, and they didn't want that.
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Old 11-27-2011, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61 View Post
Some of those upscale residential developments that went up in the vicinity of Cabrini-Green in recent years did make a certain percentage of their housing units available to low-income people. The goal was to provide a mixed-income development. However (and this is anecdotai, I know) I heard that many of the low-income people who were being displaced from Cabrini-Green didn't want to live in them. They were afraid that they wouldn't be well accepted by the other residents, and if there were any incidents of crime or vandalism in the new developments that they would immediately be blamed for them, and they didn't want that.
I'm sure there were all kinds of reactions, but I was there just before the wrecking balls started tearing down buildings, and we spoke with a LOT of residents about the situation and most were upset/lost. I realize this doesn't cover every person either, but it's hard for me to ignore.
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Old 11-27-2011, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
While it may not always be a fair or fun process for the residents who have to move, having concentrated poverty in any part of a city has been shown over and over again to do far more bad than good, both for the residents of the public housing and for the city overall. I think the days of public housing projects, overall, is over. They were huge failures in every city they were built, and having low-income families spread throughout a city is actually beneficial to everyone involved.
Totally agree, but the way the City of Chicago went through the process wasn't diplomatic at all. Minneapolis (believe it or not) was a big recipient of HUD housing and when those projects were all torn down in the 90's they also didn't do such a great job of accomodating the displaced residents. It's a tough situation, and frankly, the cities know they can push the poor around and they do. Sad.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:12 PM
 
3,980 posts, read 4,219,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahl_Wrighter View Post
Saying Cleveland is becoming "Chicagoish" isn't necessarily a good thing, especially with all the problems that Chicago is facing, just like many other midwestern cities. With the current state of all cities considered, Minneapolis and Pittsburgh are two cities that Cleveland could model their restoration efforts after.

Cleveland seems to be making great strides in improving the city, but it seems to lag Pittsburgh by about 10 years. Hopefully though, will all the projects going on in Cleveland, it can help stabilize the population and even draw people back to the city (something Pittsburgh is still trying to accomplish).
I don't agree; and i'm not sure what lagging behind Pittsburgh means... Cleveland's downtown, residential, restaurant/entertainment-wise, is clearly stronger than Pittsburgh; and Cleveland's making leaps and bounds (look it when the casino, medical mart and the Flats (East Bank development + West Bank's new aquarium next year) go on line... Most will agree (including me), that Pittsburgh's neighborhood architecture is denser (more row houses) and physically more attractive than Cleveland's largely wood-frame houses, with a dash of brownstone walk-up apartments here & there. Such housing gives Cleveland, in certain sections, a kind of rural, Tobacco Road look about it... But then, you have stellar areas, like Shaker Square (beutiful, high density apartments), Ohio City (Victorians with a dense, popular core), among others...
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:52 PM
 
Location: OH
364 posts, read 666,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
I don't agree; and i'm not sure what lagging behind Pittsburgh means... Cleveland's downtown, residential, restaurant/entertainment-wise, is clearly stronger than Pittsburgh; and Cleveland's making leaps and bounds (look it when the casino, medical mart and the Flats (East Bank development + West Bank's new aquarium next year) go on line... Most will agree (including me), that Pittsburgh's neighborhood architecture is denser (more row houses) and physically more attractive than Cleveland's largely wood-frame houses, with a dash of brownstone walk-up apartments here & there. Such housing gives Cleveland, in certain sections, a kind of rural, Tobacco Road look about it... But then, you have stellar areas, like Shaker Square (beutiful, high density apartments), Ohio City (Victorians with a dense, popular core), among others...
I was referring to the overall revitalization of both cities when I used the term lagging. Pittsburgh has seemed to clean up much better thus far than Cleveland, although not to take anything away from all the things Cleveland has going right now. I wouldn't be so quick to say that Cleveland's downtown, residential and entertainment are clearly stronger than Pittsburgh. I can agree with you on the restaurant scene, but Cleveland and Pittsburgh both have relatively weak downtowns that are essentially dead during the week after 6PM. Pittsburgh however seems to always have more pedestrain traffic than Cleveland whenever I visit, and I notice that Pittsburgh has more retail businesses downtown (something Cleveland is lacking).

Pittsburgh also has more intact neighborhoods, while most of Cleveland's neighborhoods IN the city limits are a mess. Pittsburgh has pockets of blight, but not to the widespread extent that you see in Cleveland, especially on the east side of the city. If we're talking about the Cleveland and Pittsburgh metro areas, then Cleveland definitely comes out on top, as it arguably has some of the best suburbs in the country, but comparing the two cities, PGH just doesn't have that abandoned and neglected feel that a lot of the Cleveland city limits has.

But this isn't a Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland thread, so I digress.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:23 AM
 
5,916 posts, read 12,291,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahl_Wrighter View Post
I was referring to the overall revitalization of both cities when I used the term lagging. Pittsburgh has seemed to clean up much better thus far than Cleveland, although not to take anything away from all the things Cleveland has going right now. I wouldn't be so quick to say that Cleveland's downtown, residential and entertainment are clearly stronger than Pittsburgh. I can agree with you on the restaurant scene, but Cleveland and Pittsburgh both have relatively weak downtowns that are essentially dead during the week after 6PM. Pittsburgh however seems to always have more pedestrain traffic than Cleveland whenever I visit, and I notice that Pittsburgh has more retail businesses downtown (something Cleveland is lacking).

Pittsburgh also has more intact neighborhoods, while most of Cleveland's neighborhoods IN the city limits are a mess. Pittsburgh has pockets of blight, but not to the widespread extent that you see in Cleveland, especially on the east side of the city. If we're talking about the Cleveland and Pittsburgh metro areas, then Cleveland definitely comes out on top, as it arguably has some of the best suburbs in the country, but comparing the two cities, PGH just doesn't have that abandoned and neglected feel that a lot of the Cleveland city limits has.

But this isn't a Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland thread, so I digress.
True, about Clevelands suburbs.

I think Cleveland suburbs have A LOT of character. They definitely have a bit more of a "self-contained town" feel:

From the more ethnically neighborhood feel of Cleveland Heights and surrounding areas to affluent, Connecticut-ish Chagrin Falls and surrounding areas, Cleveland defnitely has suburbs with character.

Chicago and Detroit certainly have a lot of suburbs with character, but those metros also have miles of suburbia that may be very nice, but a little bland and without character. Cleveland because of its smaller size lacks a lot of the extensive "anywhere America" tracts of suburbia.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:47 PM
 
1,066 posts, read 2,283,381 times
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I get the feeling some things are repeated one these forums a few times, and most of the posters start regurgitating it as fact-- regardless of how true it is.

Pretty much all of these debates among rust belt cities amount to "Yeah, but city X is less gritty than city Y."

All rust belt cities are gritty. The level of grit is really irrelevant. None of these arguments change the fact that virtually all of these cities have lost population since the 1960's.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh need less infighting and more collaboration.
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