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I'll explain the "mystery!" There are several areas in Cleveland that are booming. They have actually gained population, whether you want like it or not. "Lack of people killed downtown"? Well, if it died, it's back! Downtown has way more people than it's ever had, and it's GROWING. I'd recommend visiting sometime. According to city data, median income in the Warehouse district is over $45,000, almost everyone is in their 20s, and almost nobody has children. Not saying $45k/year is making serious bank, but in Cleveland and being unmarried and without kids, it's pretty good. Ohio City has picked up a lot, so has Tremont, Detroit Shoreway has added people. These are also the areas that seem to be doing well, or at least much better than they had been. I don't see why this is impossible to understand. You can't even acknowledge that, at least in a few areas, there have been some pretty dramatic improvements???
I know you don't want to believe it, but there are a good number of folks that are doing very well in Cleveland, even ones who aren't rich. I live in an east side inner ring suburb and life is good!
Also, if you've been in Cleveland for a decade, how do you know anything about Tower City in 1978? Unless the decade you lived here was the 70s. Then all of your arguments start making much more sense.
First, Sorry Marshall for totally derailing your thread.
We should really start a new one if we really want to discuss CLE like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bacaboy
And yes, suburban malls are doing ok but that's were the people/money are and will be in the future. There is hardly any retail in Cleveland proper to speak of and that is very indicative of the lack of money in the city to support it.
Well I still completely disagree.
No retail in Cleveland? Cleveland, Ohio?
Come on man. Steelyard commons? Target and Home Depot on 117th? BJ's, Target, Best Buy and Lowes @ RidgePark?
(Obviously you can tell I am a westsider.. no expert on the east side here lol)
And I find it funny you think empty storefronts (which are all over the county, not just Cleveland) is a direct result of population loss. It's true developers went nuts in the 90's building shopping plazas all over the city (and the country). It's also true that Online Shopping and big box stores like Walmart are doing a lot of damage. Thanks to the internet, retail will never recover in this country. Cleveland's population could go right back to 1970's levels and you will not see all these storefronts magically fill up.
I haven't been to a Best Buy in over a year. Much easier to buy that router FROM MY PHONE.
And cheaper too.
This is happening everywhere. Not just in CLE.
I just wonder how many of these places we are talking about have YOU been too?
I worked downtown for 12 years. Tower City is doing OK. When I lived in Lakewood I went to Tower City for movies. Yea ok once I almost had the theater to myself but that movie had been out a long time. lol
And as for Randall Park Mall... why North Randall hasn't been annexed I have no idea.... but you blame that on population loss. Not the fact that the owner was busted for not paying over $200,000 in taxes. Not that the owner had taken out several mortgages and did nothing to improve the property. Or that JC Penny became an outlet store and then got smoked by the Wallmarts of the world and closed.
Any mall that didn't change its strategy in the early 2000's as the popularity of the internet grew, was doomed to fail. All the malls that reinvented themselves: see the former Great Northern Mall, now Westfield and the former Westgate which was in SERIOUS decline have both reinvented themselves and stayed relevant in the era of the internet shopper.
Lastly, your comment Re: look at cities like NY and San Fran that have high paying jobs and population growth... if that's true how is it that no one I know (and I know quite a few New Yorkers) even HAS THEIR OWN PLACE? No... they have a minimum of 1 roommate... even the attorney that I know that makes $110,000... and lives in a 900 sq ft apartment that is more then $3,000 month.
In NYC and San Fran and San Diego and Miami it's the same thing: supply vs demand. There are more people then there is housing available and this drives prices up. Nothing more...
And to say there are no jobs here and no job growth here is also not entirely true. What do you do? I will find you a new job. lol
IT jobs have increaed 100% in the last 12 months. Jobs in the medical field are still growing and have been for over a decade thanks to UH and CC. There aren't enough nurses in this town to fill demand.
I wonder if our awesome moderator Yac would mind taking the time to split this thread out for us?? I am enjoying this conversation.
What I'm talking about are the structural problems with the area that ARE NOT changing. From taxes, to regulation, to poor leadership, the area/state are just not competitive and do not have enough positives to overcome this. Look at Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin...all states who have much better leadership who are trying to attract business and people much more aggressively than Ohio. These are all rust belt states that I think have a better chance than Ohio/Cleveland to get better.
Actually Ohio has more or less stopped trying to attract new businesses since 2011 (or at least the state's economic development program JobsOhio has). We tried that approach for decades and it hasn't really worked. Now Ohio is focusing on trying to keep the business we already have and get them when they expand to expand in Ohio. Will that work better? Who knows? That type of assessment will take years. It may not sound as sexy but there are already a decent number of businesses Ohio has persuaded to stay that would have left otherwise.
It's sort of like how every year all of Cleveland wants the Indians, Browns, and Cavs to go out and make a huge splash in free agency, poaching the top talents away from elsewhere (or in this case the biggest businesses away from elsewhere). But just like in free agency you often have to overpay and you neglect the reality that the real way to build a winning team is through the draft, from the bottom up.
No apologies necessary, Peregrine. I'm actually happy that the discussion has become more substantive than just a tourist-visit thread. I'm sincerely trying to educate myself about Cleveland and appreciate all the points of view. It's also encouraging that the viewpoints are skewing 5-6 to 1 positive to negative. For the past 6 month's I've been reading tons of articles and interviews with native Clevelanders, and it's almost the same perspective across the board - "yeah, it's got its problems, everybody knows that, but I wouldn't live anywhere else". After looking through the picture threads I can see why. There's a "real" aesthetic to it that just appeals to me. All midwesterners that I have ever met have been salt of the earth, friendly (without being syrupy, sappy sweet), not afraid to get their hands dirty, blue-collar folks. Reminds me of southerners.
I'm reading an interesting book right now about the inversion going on in American cities right now, where the affluent and upper middle class are moving back into the city centers that were abandoned 40-60 years ago and the suburbs are increasingly becoming the haven for the lower income and recent immigrants. It appears from my research that Cleveland is just now right on the cusp of that phenomenon, and the opportunities are there to possibly get on the ground floor of a Williamsburg Brooklyn or Sheffield Chicago type situation. It's exciting. Is it a guarantee that it will definitely happen in Cleveland? No. But the winners in life are usually the ones who took a risk, right?
One of the points this book raises also, is the staggering amount of unneccessary redundancy caused by all the individual municipalities in Cleveland's inner ring suburbs. The costs of maintaining separate police, fire, city councils, city halls, libraries and the bureaucracies to run them are orders of magnitude higher than if there were more regionalization and consolidation. But it's a tricky subject because the people who live in each of these municipalities want to hold on to their unique character, even if they are paying a premium for it. I was curious if there had ever been any discussions of incorporating together or even (gasp) annexation into Cleveland proper to take advantage of economies of scale, increased purchasing power, federal funding increases due to higher population, etc. Seems like a compromise could be struck where each current town/municipality could keep its own zoning/architectural standards, each have its own representative(s) on City Council. I can guess that that might be some pie-in-the-sky scenario that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
Anyway, good discussion everybody, thank you for all the restaurant recommendations. I think I'll skip the Whole Foods while I'm there as I currently live 4 miles from the corporate headquarters (and their largest restaurant). I'll take my chances with the local places.
Ohio's attitude to attracting business is wrong. Instead of cutting taxes and regulation FOR ALL, government cherry-picks who to hand out a subsidy to in order to keep them in the state. One very telling sign of Ohio and business is auto manufacturing. While BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Hyundai, Toyota, etc have opened new factories in the South, Ohio (among other rust belt states) has not attracted a single factory since Honda in early 80's. Blame the unions and state policy (taxes, regulation, etc).
In any case, there will always be opposing view points. My question above about how one can say there is a "boom" in Cleveland (or even a REAL improvement) when population is shrinking has not been answered. Bjimmy tried but I don't think is correct. I completely agree that there are more people living downtown (ie around Tower City, East 4th, Warehouse district) today then 10 years ago. But where are they coming from? The only way that one can conclude that this is a plus is if we assume they are making MORE money then those who have left the area(since overall population is still decreasing). Otherwise, the people living downtown are the same people who are NOT living in Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, Tremont, etc. This is a must since THE POPULATION OF THE AREA CONTINUES TO SHRINK. I don't think the overall area's income is growing at all relative to other areas of country. I think posters around here focus on the very small percentage of Cleveland locals who can go to one of the many restaurants mentioned or patronize the "cool and trendy" places discussed when the reality is that the great majority of the local population does not have the money to really do this all too often. For every area of the city that gets better, there is another neighborhood which is getting worse. Example: Lakewood near 117th......section 8 growing like a crazy and young professionals fleeing that area...know it well. For every shortage of apartments downtown there is a glut in another part of the city.
Until the population of the area at a minimum stops going down, then any talk about a turn-around is premature. For every dollar spent downtown that will be one less dollar spent in another part of the area. It is a zero sum game unless more income is generated in the area to support a growing population and level of wealth.
One of the points this book raises also, is the staggering amount of unneccessary redundancy caused by all the individual municipalities in Cleveland's inner ring suburbs. The costs of maintaining separate police, fire, city councils, city halls, libraries and the bureaucracies to run them are orders of magnitude higher than if there were more regionalization and consolidation. But it's a tricky subject because the people who live in each of these municipalities want to hold on to their unique character, even if they are paying a premium for it. I was curious if there had ever been any discussions of incorporating together or even (gasp) annexation into Cleveland proper to take advantage of economies of scale, increased purchasing power, federal funding increases due to higher population, etc.
The problem is the mayors, not the citizens. They don't want to lose their little fiefdoms. Only a few are really onboard.
Oh, and I wanted to comment on your music festival comment. Yea we are sorely in need of some huge one but there are many around the area. In fact, if you were here last week you could have caught a local metal festival on July 7th. Small, but well attended. Started in 05.
You also just missed the Canton Blue Festival. Canton Blues Festival | Downtown Canton Events
I actually just heard of this one this year. Love the Blues and would have gone.
This is the 11th year.
Not actually a Cleveland event, it's about an hour away from downtown.
And, when we have the Rock Hall inductions here every 3 years (yea most of us hate that it isn't here every year) there is a week long showcase of bands all around the area.
But yes.. we certainly need more. And bigger ones.
The music scene here is growing more and more every year. We even have concerts in the Metroparks starting this year, this month actually. First time ever. Cleveland Metroparks
Something tells me you would also enjoy Cain Park on the east side with the summer concert series. Southside Johnny plays there every year. That's the one I try to make. Cain Park Summer Concert Schedule -- Cain Park Concerts
Midwest Reggae Fest is in Cleveland (Whiskey Island)! Cleveland Reggae
There is also a free outdoor concert series at the Rock Hall with a bunch of Cleveland bands Summer in the City Concert Series | The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum
I was at the concert last night with Herzog and Cloud Nothings. Lots of people out, some food trucks, ice cream, a really great time! Also, on a side note, Herzog is great! Cloud Nothings I don't understand the attraction of... but there are still some awesome groups in this city! Don't miss mr. Gnome playing on August 1. I've found the Cleveland music scene to be pretty great, personally!
Midwest Reggae Fest is in Cleveland (Whiskey Island)! Cleveland Reggae
There is also a free outdoor concert series at the Rock Hall with a bunch of Cleveland bands Summer in the City Concert Series | The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum
I was at the concert last night with Herzog and Cloud Nothings. Lots of people out, some food trucks, ice cream, a really great time! Also, on a side note, Herzog is great! Cloud Nothings I don't understand the attraction of... but there are still some awesome groups in this city! Don't miss mr. Gnome playing on August 1. I've found the Cleveland music scene to be pretty great, personally!
Great stuff - Thanks! Here are some pictures from last night's concert. Everybody looks so miserable and unhappy to be there!
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