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I understand your points but I could say I am closer to Richmond VA than Pittsburgh for example (I think that is correct)
I have always thought that especially the eastern midwestern cities have large european ethnic populations, does that make them Eastern? Houston has a large asian population and Chicago a large hispanic population etc does that make them western or SWestern?
Ohio to me always seemed like the start of the Midwest to me.
New England and Appalchian PA are both Northeastern, very little in common really
Lancaster and Ohio both have large Amish populations. Detroit a large Middle Eastern population etc.
Cleveland to me is in mindset a Midwestern city, that is not good nor bad
These are rubics that segment things nothing more and nothing less
What about Appalachia OH? The comparison of Cleveland to cities in North Dakota is completely misplaced. What is the midwestern mindset?
I understand your points but I could say I am closer to Richmond VA than Pittsburgh for example (I think that is correct)
I have always thought that especially the eastern midwestern cities have large european ethnic populations, does that make them Eastern? Houston has a large asian population and Chicago a large hispanic population etc does that make them western or SWestern?
Ohio to me always seemed like the start of the Midwest to me.
New England and Appalchian PA are both Northeastern, very little in common really
Lancaster and Ohio both have large Amish populations. Detroit a large Middle Eastern population etc.
Cleveland to me is in mindset a Midwestern city, that is not good nor bad
These are rubics that segment things nothing more and nothing less
I understand all of your points...but I think the point I'm really trying to make is that way we define regions is just stupid. This is how it's done, and how people do it, but I still disagree with it. Defining regions by "feel" or ethnic makeup are just simply bad metrics to use. It can be really wishy/washy on defining gray areas, and even leads to odd contradictions like south Florida, where people start making weird statements like "South FL is not in the south." In fact, you actually pointed out a few very good points/questions that illustrate why this is such a bad way to define regions.
I've always felt straight geography is the best way as it just makes the most sense and is the most consistent/logical. Having grown up in Ohio and realized how close it is to the East coast, you definitely come to appreciate these points a bit more...especially when you see just how far the "midwest" extends. When I was a kid, we took many vacations across the country, and drives to the "East" would be hours, whereas drives to other parts of the "Midwest" would be on the order of days of driving.
I used to also live in Rochester, NY and I always find it funny when people try to call that "Midwest"...seriously? I was ~5-6 hours from NYC, less to the coast in some places, and that was the "Midwest"? Ridiculous. It's silly that we're still stuck in defining the East by revolutionary war boundaries...the US is a gigantic country, and regional definitions should reflect this.
In regards to the thread, I do think Cleveland is Northeast. And even when we're talking about the subjective criteria people use here, it's actually a lot more Northeastern than most people here realize (not East coast, but Northeast...Northeast shouldn't = East Coast). If you spend anytime in the city, especially it's eastern suburbs, you'll immediately notice the eastern/new england feel to the area. Technically, since it's in Ohio, and since Ohio is categorized as "Midwest" people will vote such...and since it doesn't resemble NYC/Philly, people will also vote "Midwest".
If you wanna get really specific Cleveland is Northeastern, but more specifically Great Lakes. That is always the answer I gave to people when they asked what region Ohio was in. It's the most accurate since I couldn't say "Northeast" and because the Great Lakes areas are unique when compared to the interior parts of the "Midwest".
I've always thought the definition of "Midwest" is kind of asinine. Why is it only things immediately on the Atlantic ocean are the east, but basically anything west of that is the "middle" or the "west". Geographically, the "midwest" makes absolutely no sense. Ohio is further east than most of Florida (which is on the east coast). Consider that one for a moment.
Because the Midwest was "the West" back then. "Center City" Philly, for example, is clearly not in the center of the city. But it's one of those historical carryovers that's stuck because it technically was the center of Philadelphia for a long time before surrounding areas were annexed.
I still think it's funny when people from Pennsylvania are, say, in Youngstown or Cleveland, acting like they are in another world. 60 miles from the PA border and Cleveland is dead-midwest. Cleveland's Public Square is New England based; Northeast Ohio was Connecticut territory, so to deny new england/northeast influence there is incorrect.
It makes me laugh, too. I have never heard (and my entire family history lies along the PA Turnpike from York to Pittsburgh) people in Western PA refer to themselves as the northeast outside of this forum. It's like God forbid you say otherwise. Pittsburgh and Western PA are certainly more Appalachian than anything else. My grandmother from Somerset, Pennsylvania certainly doesn't consider it northeastern, same with my brother in Johnstown. Interesting hypothesis, though. This huge barrier between the two? Yeah, ok. I was recently in southern Columbiana County (Ohio) and I was 35 miles from Pittsburgh. I grew up in northern Columbiana County and could be to downtown Pittsburgh in 45 minutes if traffic wasn't bad on the Parkway west. As much as people in Cleveland and Pittsburgh hate to admit it, the two regions are highly connected. The two cities are very different in their topography and architecture, but are working together because of their changing economies. Google the TechBelt and see what it brings up. I am currently working with the Youngstown/Warren chamber of commerce, and I was recently reviewing this the other day. Also, I believe it was a guy from Pittsburgh or the Post-Gazette that referred to it as "Cleveburgh."
It may be time to realize that what separates Pittsburgh and Cleveland is more artificial than real. It may be time to talk about the once-unthinkable: a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh metro region.
A two-hour drive up the turnpike is all that separates downtown Cleveland from downtown Pittsburgh. Suburban counties of both regions are much closer.
I think Northeast Ohio represents the northeast more than Western PA. I am not just talking about the architecture here, I am talking about the topography and demographics, moreso the topography. Cleveland boosts one of the top 10 highest Puerto Rican concentrated populations in the country, hard to find outside of Chicago in the Midwest. Campbell, Ohio has the 5th highest Greek percentaged population in the country, and Lowellville, Ohio has one of the highest Italian percentage-based populations in the country. Outside of Chicago again, Greek populations are uncommon outside of the rest of the Midwest:
These demographic patterns more mimic the Northeast versus what you find in the Midwest. Let me remind posters who think North Dakota and other Plain states who are labeled Midwest are just like Ohio remind them that North Dakota and Minnesota were largely settled by Scandinavians. I know Minneapolis and Columbus have very high Somalian populations, but those are more recent immigrants.
You could drive right through Poland, Boardman, and Canfield along US route 224... and you would think you were in New England from the house styles to the center town greens. I live just north of the Western Reserve Road corridor... Connecticut Western Reserve like we have stated before. Yes, just because you have similar architecture like another region doesn't mean you're attomatically that region. But, really, comparing Ohio to North Dakota?! I was in SW Indiana, and I felt like I was in a different region altogether. Ohio, like another poster said, is a good hybrid between the Northeast and Midwest. I can head down to the extreme SW Ohio portion of the state, and Cincinnati with its architecture and topography could have a slight NE feel to it. You can classify states and regions as much as you want, but it comes down to really how you see it. The two cities that Cleveland compares to the most to are Buffalo and Milwaukee, but much moreso Buffalo. Cleveland is like a bigger, more to offer Buffalo. Cleveland belongs in the Great Lakes region. The Great Lakes takes on its own feel, its own identity. I found Missouri, Iowa, and Kansas completely different from my area, absolutely nothing alike outside of the higher Italian population in some of St. Louis. Linguisitcs are another thing. Cleveland has the great lakes accent as I call it. Me and my roomate from Indiana, Pennsylvania were told by others in our program at Cleveland State that we had an accent compared to Clevelanders. I think the southern suburbs of Youngstown lean more towards Pittsburgh, while the northern suburbs towards Cleveland. Another point with Cleveland, the eastern neighborhoods and suburbs are more northeastern with the brick architecture and demographics, while western neighborhoods and suburbs are more Midwestern with their woodframed houses.
You want to talk about connectivity? I live closer to New York than I do Chicago. I even stated earlier in this thread that I live closer to Portland, Maine than I do Des, Moines, Iowa. Cleveland connects easily with New York, the Mid-Atlantic, Chicago, and Michigan. Cleveland and Northeast Ohio again are a good evening out point between these two regions. I work in sales for a company that has Ohio labeled at the "Northeast Region". We can be traveling from places in Cincinnati up to Bangor. I did most of my traveling last month to D.C. and Baltimore. Again, it depends on how you look at it. I am certainly not saying that Cleveland is a coastal Northeastern city, but I could see it being labeled interior Northeastern if we are going to call Buffalo and Pittsburgh northeastern. But I can also see it being called Midwestern. It goes both ways... The Heart of it All. Cleveland and Ohio are the dividing point between the Midwest and Northeast, and it shares characteristics of both. Simple as that.
Because the Midwest was "the West" back then. "Center City" Philly, for example, is clearly not in the center of the city. But it's one of those historical carryovers that's stuck because it technically was the center of Philadelphia for a long time before surrounding areas were annexed.
Yea, I understand why these terms exist. I just think it's unfortunate that our definitions of "west" and "east" didn't grow as the country did.
Thanks for the "center city" historical info, I have wondered about that before.
Know nothing about Cleveland? I've been going there for almost 30 years! I'm just as qualified to speak as you. Cleveland may have Northeastern influences, but it's still the Midwest. I would never place Cleveland in with Philadelphia or New York before Detroit. Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Rochester all lean more toward the Midwest than the Northeast as well. I just cannot for the life of me see how anyone would try and link these places to the Bos-Wash corridor (the quintessential Northeast). When someone mentions the Northeast, they are usually referring to the Bos-Wash corridor. So either be more specific about what you mean when you say Northeast, or don't be surprised if people question you.
I have family in Dallas and have been going there before I could walk, that doesn't make me some expert on Dallas. Living and visiting are two completely different things. So you're as qualified as a resident who could be living here for 30 or more years? Interesting. Cleveland does NOT belong with the likes of Boston or New York, but it certainly has more in common with Buffalo than it does Kansas City or Des Moines. Here, you want specifics? BosWash along the I-95 corrirdor is Northeast, while the interior Northeast would be the eastern lakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan
I have to disagree with this strongly. Having been to Downtown Cleveland myself, it reminded me more of the Midwest than anything else. In a lot of ways, it reminded me of Downtown St. Louis apart from not being on the lake. Culturally, linguistically, historically, Cleveland was a Midwestern city. It still baffles me that one would try and say Cleveland in more like Philadelphia than Detroit.
I do not see how downtown St. Louis resembles Cleveland at all, let alone "strongly." I even lived in Playhouse Square. St. Louis is oriented towards its river, while Cleveland is oriented towards the lake, not to mention the entire setup and grid is different. Downtown Cleveland was more active, too. Both are similiar in the fact that they need to work on their riverfront and lakefront. If a Cleveland poster is saying it is like Boston or New York, then they should be called out, but not Buffalo or Rochester. They should also be called out for saying Cleveland is like Kansas City.
Posters need to realize there are big differences between being "coastal Northeast" and"interior Northeast".
It makes me laugh, too. I have never heard (and my entire family history lies along the PA Turnpike from York to Pittsburgh) people in Western PA refer to themselves as the northeast outside of this forum. It's like God forbid you say otherwise.
So which region of the country is this state in?
Hmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Pittsburgh and Western PA are certainly more Appalachian than anything else. My grandmother from Somerset, Pennsylvania certainly doesn't consider it northeastern, same with my brother in Johnstown. Interesting hypothesis, though.
Do they travel often? Have they traveled often? I'm just curious because my own experience has been that those who live in western Pennsylvania and say that they live somewhere other than the Northeast really haven't traveled much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley
This huge barrier between the two? Yeah, ok. I was recently in southern Columbiana County (Ohio) and I was 35 miles from Pittsburgh. I grew up in northern Columbiana County and could be to downtown Pittsburgh in 45 minutes if traffic wasn't bad on the Parkway west.
There's no "barrier," but Pittsburgh having social and economic connections to Cleveland and Columbus doesn't necessarily make it Midwestern by default. The connections to Cincinnati and Detroit are somewhat weaker, and they're pretty marginal with Indianapolis, St. Louis, Milwaukee and Minneapolis/St. Paul. They're decent with Chicago, but still considerably weaker than with New York, Philadelphia and Washington DC. In fact, the only major coastal Northeastern city that Pittsburgh isn't significantly connected to is Boston. Conversely, the only coastal Northeastern city that Cleveland is significantly connected to is New York. (Boston, Philadelphia and Washington DC are not among Cleveland's top 10 migration networks. I've illustrated the data on this website before, and I'm trying to find the post so I can bookmark it.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley
I think Northeast Ohio represents the northeast more than Western PA. I am not just talking about the architecture here, I am talking about the topography and demographics, moreso the topography. Cleveland boosts one of the top 10 highest Puerto Rican concentrated populations in the country, hard to find outside of Chicago in the Midwest. Campbell, Ohio has the 5th highest Greek percentaged population in the country, and Lowellville, Ohio has one of the highest Italian percentage-based populations in the country. Outside of Chicago again, Greek populations are uncommon outside of the rest of the Midwest:
These demographic patterns more mimic the Northeast versus what you find in the Midwest.
And Pittsburgh has everything you've mentioned but the Puerto Ricans. It's also worth asking where Cleveland's Puerto Ricans came from. Did most of them come from New York or Chicago? I've learned that most of the racial and ethnic diversity present in the Great Lakes cities originated in Chicago and spread out from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Another point with Cleveland, the eastern neighborhoods and suburbs are more northeastern with the brick architecture and demographics, while western neighborhoods and suburbs are more Midwestern with their woodframed houses.
Pittsburgh is overwhelmingly made of bricks, and the only reason you don't hear more about its rowhouses is because many of them, unfortunately, are located in some of the city's worst neighborhoods. If those neighborhoods gentrify, then Pittsburgh will be better known for its rowhouses, and also be better able to show them off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley
I am certainly not saying that Cleveland is a coastal Northeastern city, but I could see it being labeled interior Northeastern if we are going to call Buffalo and Pittsburgh northeastern. But I can also see it being called Midwestern.
Cleveland is no more Northeastern than Pittsburgh is. In fact, it's less Northeastern. Here's a list of typically Northeastern traits...
Is it located in a state classified as Northeastern by the U.S. Census Bureau?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Does it have significant history predating the Revolutionary War?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Was it settled by people from the coastal Northeast?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: Yes
Was it incorporated before 1800?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Was its manufacturing specialty primarily in advanced materials (steel, aluminum, glass, etc.) rather than finished products (automotive, machine tools, agricultural equipment, etc.)?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Is it located closer to New York than it is to Chicago?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Does it have a stronger gross migration flow with New York than it does with Chicago?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Does it have a strong gross migration flow with Philadelphia?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Does it have a strong gross migration flow with Washington DC?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Does it have a strong gross migration flow with Boston?
Pittsburgh: No
Cleveland: No
Do at least 10% of commuters use public transit?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Is the built environment mostly made of bricks?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: Somewhat
Is the prevailing landscape hilly and covered with trees?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: Not entirely
Is it located within two hours of mountainous getaway destinations?
Pittsburgh: Yes
Cleveland: No
Is there a dearth of large-scale agriculture in the surrounding countryside?
My family has all grown up in Pittsburgh and they or anyone I know here has never identified with any region besides the northeast. Is someone going to tell me everyone I know here is wrong for agreeing were in the northeast as the census says? Only on city data hve I ever heard anyone try to say Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is the Midwest. Have you guys ever even been here?
Just fact checked the founding dates of Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Both were founded before 1800 and both were incorporated after 1800. Haven't checked any other of these ''facts''.
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