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Ok, I know we're a full week removed from St. Patrick's Day. But I was just looking at some footage of the Cleveland parade and saw a clip of the fire department marching. There were easily several hundred firemen marching and dressed in their Class A uniforms, but not one black firefighter among them - despite the fact of there being a couple hundred blacks in Cleveland's fire department. So, what's the deal...honestly?
Yes, we're talking about an Irish holiday. But I'm certain that not all of the 400-plus white firemen I saw marching were Irish. Some were no doubt of Italian, German, English, and Dutch decent. Are race relations still that bad in Cleveland that black firemen can't or won't participate in a city-wide parade??
Last edited by griffin96; 03-24-2013 at 09:26 PM..
Ok, I know we're a full week removed from St. Patrick's Day. But I was just looking at some footage of the Cleveland parade and saw a clip of the fire department marching. There were easily several hundred firemen marching and dressed in their Class A uniforms, but not one black firefighter among them - despite the fact of there being a couple hundred blacks in Cleveland's fire department. So, what's the deal...honestly?
Yes, we're talking about an Irish holiday. But I'm certain that not all of the 400-plus white firemen I saw marching were Irish. Some were no doubt of Italian, German, English, and Dutch decent. Are race relations still that bad in Cleveland that black firemen can't or won't participate in a city-wide parade??
You make quite a logic jump in your last statement.
You make quite a logic jump in your last statement.
How so?
Cleveland's fire department consists of hundreds of men and women from the city, thereby making it a microcosm of the community. Firefighters are also thought to represent the best of what a community has to offer (e.g., service, sacrifice, respect). Considering that hundreds of Cleveland firemen marched at what is annually the nation's second largest St. Paddy's parade, I find it hard to believe that the glaring absence of black firefighters in the group was simply coincidence. ...something is wrong. I deduced that if there is an apparent race issue within the fire department, then perhaps this also reflects some broader issue in the city. Was sincerely inquiring and hoping to get some thoughtful feedback.
Last edited by griffin96; 03-24-2013 at 09:17 PM..
Cleveland's fire department consists of hundreds of men and women from the city, thereby making it a microcosm of the community. Firefighters are also thought to represent the best of what a community has to offer (e.g., service, sacrifice, respect). Considering that hundreds of Cleveland firemen marched at what is annually the nation's second largest St. Paddy's parade, I find it hard to believe that the glaring absence of black firefighters in the group was simply coincidence. ...something is wrong. I deduced that if there is an apparent race issue within the fire department, then perhaps this also reflects some broader issue in the city. Was sincerely inquiring and hoping to get some thoughtful feedback.
Let's be real. Most firefighters ARE white males. There aren't very many women, black, hispanic, asian firefighters. Why are you only concerned about where the black ones are? Maybe black people didn't apply o become firemen? Why aren't you curious about the Asian firefighters? Also, if there were black firefighters that didn't want to be in the parade, how does that equal them being uncomfortable with race relations?
Let's be real. Most firefighters ARE white males. There aren't very many women, black, hispanic, asian firefighters. Why are you only concerned about where the black ones are? Maybe black people didn't apply o become firemen? Why aren't you curious about the Asian firefighters? Also, if there were black firefighters that didn't want to be in the parade, how does that equal them being uncomfortable with race relations?
Making something out of absolutely nothing.
Dude, don't insult my intelligence. I am not creating a "straw man." I happen to know for a fact that Cleveland's fire department (and police department) have several hundred blacks on the force. I would estimate that between 25% to 30% of the fire department is black. So, for there not to be any present during a city-wide parade where hundreds of their fellow firemen marched - well, that's quite curious to me.
Hey, if you don't have an answer to my question...that's fine. But don't insult my intelligence by trying to equate the absence of a couple hundred black firemen in Cleveland with the absence of Asian or female firefighters.
Dude, don't insult my intelligence. I am not creating a "straw man." I happen to know for a fact that Cleveland's fire department (and police department) have several hundred blacks on the force. I would estimate that between 25% to 30% of the fire department is black. So, for there not to be any present during a city-wide parade where hundreds of their fellow firemen marched - well, that's quite curious to me.
Hey, if you don't have an answer to my question...that's fine. But don't insult my intelligence by trying to equate the absence of a couple hundred black firemen in Cleveland with the absence of Asian or female firefighters.
What exactly is the difference? Post some stats/facts or anything you have.
You insult your own intelligence by not having anything to back yourself up.
This thread is a honestly a waste of time though. You just want to complain about race, in which case we already have a thread on the Ohio forum where you can do just that.
Edit: I'll even help you out. In 2000, 26% of the fire fighters were minorities (not necessarily black, but minorities). http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURT...cv-00301-0.pdf . This link provides the details about a case making the fire department hire minorities to make up at least 1/3 of the force. The important issue: minorities do exist on the force and make up a decent percentage, compared to 1976 when Cleveland fire was 4% minorities. However, the fact remains, that the field is still dominated by white males. This is neither here nor there, it is just how it is. More white dudes grow up thinking they want to be fire fighters.
If you want to make an issue like marching in a parade a serious thing, I guess you can go ahead and do that but, 1) I was not at the parade and can neither deny nor substantiate any claim that there were no black fire fighters marching, 2) parade participation could be entirely voluntary, thus if a black guy didn't want to march and would rather take some time off for himself, that is completely his choice (a very understandable one). Afterall, as you said, it is St. Patrick's Day. Tends to be a bigger deal among the white/Irish folks than any minorities, 3) I don't see how this has anything to do with race relations. Are you suggesting that no black people marched because they feared for their safety walking down Euclid? Or maybe they'd get booed or something? If so, that sounds pretty ridiculous to me.
What exactly is the difference? Post some stats/facts or anything you have.
You insult your own intelligence by not having anything to back yourself up.
This thread is a honestly a waste of time though. You just want to complain about race, in which case we already have a thread on the Ohio forum where you can do just that.
First of all, I'm not complaining about race. I did not point any fingers or make any denigrating statements about any race. I simply shared an interesting observation from the parade and was hoping to get some feedback from people who live in Cleveland. Just because someone mentions race, doesn't mean they are trolling or being racist. I think you're the one making logical leaps now.
Now I don't live in Cleveland proper, but I do reside in northeast Ohio. Gauging from your responses though, it's obvious that you don't live anywhere close to Cleveland. Otherwise, you would know that it is completely unnecessary for me to cite statistics regarding to the racial composition of the fire department. If you lived or worked here, you would know from regular firsthand observation that blacks make up a sizable number of Cleveland's law enforcement and fire department (also, the last two fire chiefs have been black). And as for the parade itself, anyone who was there or saw footage can corroborate that the only black person among the hundreds of firefighters was the fire chief (and maybe one other guy carrying some flag).
According to my math, there should be approximately 205 black firefighters. Other than the chief and a black member of the color guard, I don't recall seeing one black firefighter among the several hundred that marched (I will try to find video on Youtube). To me, it was a glaring absence. Knowing that there are at least a couple hundred blacks on the department, and that St Paddy's Day is the biggest day of the year where the fire department gets to strut its stuff in front of the community, I figured there must be some underlying reason for why none were present - beyond dismissing it as either coincidence or trolling.
Look, I'm not suggesting that every single black person who was off duty that day should have been in attendance. But, I am saying that the fact that NONE were present is curious, and begs the question...and a fair/reasonable question, in my opinion.
Perhaps there is no race problem. If that's the answer, fine. But, for perspective, last year I attended Kansas City's parade, and I recall seeing a much more diverse representation among the safety services marching there. I'd venture to guess that KC's department is no more diverse than Cleveland's (as most fire departments are majority white males, as you pointed out). But there was a noticeably larger representation of minority (mostly black) firefighters/police marching in the parade.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that the racial makeup of a St Patrick's Day parade is front page news. Not at all. But this is a discussion forum, and there are many topics discussed here - trivial and serious. If you don't want to participate in this thread, then don't. See, pretty simple.
Last edited by griffin96; 03-25-2013 at 07:03 AM..
First of all, I'm not complaining about race. I did not point any fingers or make any denigrating statements about any race. I simply shared an interesting observation from the parade and was hoping to get some feedback from people who live in Cleveland. Just because someone mentions race, doesn't mean they are trolling or being racist. I think you're the one making logical leaps now.
Now I don't live in Cleveland proper, but I do reside in northeast Ohio. Gauging from your responses though, it's obvious that you don't live anywhere close to Cleveland. Otherwise, you would know that it is completely unnecessary for me to cite statistics regarding to the racial composition of the fire department. If you lived or worked here, you would know from regular firsthand observation that blacks make up a sizable number of Cleveland's law enforcement and fire department (also, the last two fire chiefs have been black). And as for the parade itself, anyone who was there or saw footage can corroborate that the only black person among the hundreds of firefighters was the fire chief (and maybe one other guy carrying some flag).
According to my math, there should be approximately 205 black firefighters. Other than the chief and a black member of the color guard, I don't recall seeing one black firefighter among the several hundred that marched (I will try to find video on Youtube). To me, it was a glaring absence. Knowing that there are at least a couple hundred blacks on the department, and that St Paddy's Day is the biggest day of the year where the fire department gets to strut its stuff in front of the community, I figured there must be some underlying reason for why they were not present - beyond dismissing it as either coincidence or trolling.
You must always cite your sources. This is not an unreasonable request. Also, I am from Cleveland. I don't see your point. I live in Boston now (moved in January, will be back to Cleveland periodically until I decide to move back for good some day). What does this have to do with anything? You are trying to discredit me from having an opinion when in this situation, that is a completely irrelevant matter. By your own admission, you don't even live in Cleveland either, so I fail to see your point. Don't start trying to take "Cleveland cred" from me. I guarantee I know more about my city and have spent more time in it than you.
You're also incorrect about number of blacks in the department. You cited an article about the actual document that I posted. I already gave you the original! Why didn't you just read it? Too long and boring? If you bothered to read carefully, it says 26% are minorities. Not black. Are blacks the only minority? I have not found a breakdown of the minorities. So basically, you just told me exactly what I told you, only you interpreted the statistics incorrectly. Your 205 black fire fighters stat is just inaccurate. I don't pretend to know exactly what it is, but I find it quite unlikely that all 26% (As of 2000) minorities in the fire department are black. Also, don't forget about all those bagpipe playing firefighters. Are you seriously surprised no black people play bagpipes?
Going by the 785 number, there would likely be about 581 white fire fighters. Many of them probably really like St. Paddy's day. Many of them are probably lifelong Clevelanders and come from a family of lifelong Clevelanders are are very proud to march in it. They could very well be Irish. Why is this wrong?
You must always cite your sources. This is not an unreasonable request. Also, I am from Cleveland. I don't see your point. I live in Boston now (moved in January, will be back to Cleveland periodically until I decide to move back for good some day). What does this have to do with anything? You are trying to discredit me from having an opinion when in this situation, that is a completely irrelevant matter. By your own admission, you don't even live in Cleveland either, so I fail to see your point. Don't start trying to take "Cleveland cred" from me. I guarantee I know more about my city and have spent more time in it than you.
You're also incorrect about number of blacks in the department. You cited an article about the actual document that I posted. I already gave you the original! Why didn't you just read it? Too long and boring? If you bothered to read carefully, it says 26% are minorities. Not black. Are blacks the only minority? I have not found a breakdown of the minorities. So basically, you just told me exactly what I told you, only you interpreted the statistics incorrectly. Your 205 black fire fighters stat is just inaccurate. I don't pretend to know exactly what it is, but I find it quite unlikely that all 26% (As of 2000) minorities in the fire department are black. Also, don't forget about all those bagpipe playing firefighters. Are you seriously surprised no black people play bagpipes?
Going by the 785 number, there would likely be about 581 white fire fighters. Many of them probably really like St. Paddy's day. Many of them are probably lifelong Clevelanders and come from a family of lifelong Clevelanders are are very proud to march in it. They could very well be Irish. Why is this wrong?
I mentioned your geographic location because your previous comments suggested that you were unaware of the demographic makeup of Cleveland's safety forces ("maybe black people didn't apply or become firemen?"). Someone wholly unfamiliar with the demographic makeup of the city's fire department cannot provide an informed opinion to my question/observations.
You mentioned bagpipe players...but I purposefully did not include them. I specifically referenced the hundreds of firefighters dressed in their Class A uniforms. Not the guys in kilts. I wouldn't expect there to be many, if any, minority bagpipe players and drummers (there you go insulting my intelligence again).
You are correct that the number 26% represents total minorities, not blacks specifically (I edited my post accordingly). However, I am on safe ground when I say that the overwhelming majority of the minority members are black. Again, that is from regular firsthand observation (I used to live in and currently work in Cleveland) and logical deduction (Cleveland is 50% black and the Hispanic population is very underrepresented in the fire department). Funny thing though...despite the small number of hispanic firefighters in CLE, I do recall seeing at least one marching in the parade.
I did not suggest that anything is wrong with white guys marching in a parade. I am aware that there is a strong Irish-Catholic tradition in the fire service. However, I am also aware that there were firefighters of Italian decent (btw, Italy has a turbulent history with the Irish - even though they commonly intermarry), German decent, and other non-Irish backgrounds that gladly participated. Moreover, I gave you an example of another mid-sized midwest City in Kansas City, where the minority participation in the St. Patrick's parade appeared to reflect (more or less) the ethnic makeup of KC's fire department as a whole.
Again, I just thought it was curious that I saw no black guys out there at all. Whatever...
Last edited by griffin96; 03-25-2013 at 07:52 AM..
If they were all black would you say where are all the White people?
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