Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
According to the wikipedia entry (couldn't quickly find info from other sources), Chicago's murder/non-negligent manslaughter rate is 15.9 per 100,000 people. Cleveland's is 18.6. Of cities with a population of at least 250,000, Chicago is out of 16th out of 74. Cleveland is 12. Both cities have higher crime rates than about 80% of biggish cities in the USA. I personally would say that puts both cities' rates as "one of the highest in the country."
Note the difference between "one of the" and "the" highest. It seems that you haven't grasped that.
Buffalo also appears to have a lower rate than Chicago. But please post the stats you know. I really didn't spend much time looking them up.
I have also heard very bad things about CH schools (I have one child with another on the way, and know ppl. with children who won't live there because of the schools' reputation).
"Very bad"?
Once again, the schools themselves are fine, and any hard-working, smart student with supportive parents will have the chance to succeed.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,068 posts, read 7,275,416 times
Reputation: 3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17
"Very bad"?
Once again, the schools themselves are fine, and any hard-working, smart student with supportive parents will have the chance to succeed.
Although that certainly is possible, don't you think that too many disruptive students around can sometimes be too much of a distraction for those hard-working, smart students?
And BTW, why are the Cleveland Heights schools usually rated "Continuous Improvement" on those Ohio report cards?
I'm going to chime in. I'm not on any of the Ohio forums much. The last time I was on the Cleveland forum was in 2009. This is a question to consider. Blacks move to suburban areas to get away from the crime. The question is this. Why is it that the very "hood rats" that Blacks seek to get away from always follow them? I have to ask because Blacks want to live in safe places as well.
I'm going to chime in. I'm not on any of the Ohio forums much. The last time I was on the Cleveland forum was in 2009. This is a question to consider. Blacks move to suburban areas to get away from the crime. The question is this. Why is it that the very "hood rats" that Blacks seek to get away from always follow them? I have to ask because Blacks want to live in safe places as well.
Blacks live where they can. Blacks do not want to live in the ghetto, they are just relegated to the ghetto, or rather, have digressed, to accepting the life of the ghetto because that is what their money can afford. So it shouldn't surprise anyone, that "ghetto Blacks", when the opportunity presents itself, move to suburban areas. In a lot of cases, the Section 8 housing they live in is available in suburban areas anyway, so they're just living somewhere their social worker told them was a nice place to live in. Not all ghetto Blacks live in housing projects or slums.
Blacks that want to move away from ghetto Blacks may have a few extra dollars in their pocket, but their situation is not a world away. The difference may be, a Black person that has a job wants to move away from a Black person that doesn't work and lives on welfare. I see the same thing here in Virginia; a Black person from Norfolk or Portsmouth, gets a few dollars in their pocket, and they make too much to stay on welfare. So instead of moving to a nicer part of the city they move out to Chesapeake and Virginia Beach. But then a ghetto Black person gets a few dollars in their pocket too, and they write the entire city off and does the same thing the former did. Now, you can't really blame them; yes, they take their ghetto ways with them (there are plenty of ghetto Black people in Virginia Beach), and in the case of Chesapeake, most just end up in South Norfolk, which is the slum in Chesapeake. So, you have the satisfaction of saying you live in Chesapeake, but in reality, you just live in the worst neighborhood in that city.
Blacks with real money move into a gentrified area of Norfolk or Portsmouth, or a upper middle class area of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach. Chesapeake has a lot of Black neighborhoods, and Virginia Beach has a lot of mixed neighborhoods. Those are the Blacks that have truly moved away from the ghetto Blacks.
I'll leave you with this. In a lot of cases, Whites do not want to live around what they consider to be "White trash", that are loud and obnoxious, and get into domestic disputes, etc. just embarrassing to live next to. It is the same phenomenon.
Although that certainly is possible, don't you think that too many disruptive students around can sometimes be too much of a distraction for those hard-working, smart students?
No, particularly not when by high school the students are grouped with other similar students. The top ~35% of students are taking honors/AP classes in all of the core subjects (and foreign language and instrumental music) by 9th grade and usually much earlier than that. Cleveland Heights still has very strong honors, music, and arts programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
BTW, why are the Cleveland Heights schools usually rated "Continuous Improvement" on those Ohio report cards?
Why? Because Ohio's school ratings system doesn't do a very good job of measuring the quality of the schools themselves, but instead measures what the students bring to the schools. The measurement correlates almost perfectly with the percentage of students in poverty, which is a problem (and certainly does not make a district like CH-UH look very good).
Blacks live where they can. Blacks do not want to live in the ghetto, they are just relegated to the ghetto, or rather, have digressed, to accepting the life of the ghetto because that is what their money can afford. So it shouldn't surprise anyone, that "ghetto Blacks", when the opportunity presents itself, move to suburban areas. In a lot of cases, the Section 8 housing they live in is available in suburban areas anyway, so they're just living somewhere their social worker told them was a nice place to live in. Not all ghetto Blacks live in housing projects or slums.
Blacks that want to move away from ghetto Blacks may have a few extra dollars in their pocket, but their situation is not a world away. The difference may be, a Black person that has a job wants to move away from a Black person that doesn't work and lives on welfare. I see the same thing here in Virginia; a Black person from Norfolk or Portsmouth, gets a few dollars in their pocket, and they make too much to stay on welfare. So instead of moving to a nicer part of the city they move out to Chesapeake and Virginia Beach. But then a ghetto Black person gets a few dollars in their pocket too, and they write the entire city off and does the same thing the former did. Now, you can't really blame them; yes, they take their ghetto ways with them (there are plenty of ghetto Black people in Virginia Beach), and in the case of Chesapeake, most just end up in South Norfolk, which is the slum in Chesapeake. So, you have the satisfaction of saying you live in Chesapeake, but in reality, you just live in the worst neighborhood in that city.
Blacks with real money move into a gentrified area of Norfolk or Portsmouth, or a upper middle class area of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach. Chesapeake has a lot of Black neighborhoods, and Virginia Beach has a lot of mixed neighborhoods. Those are the Blacks that have truly moved away from the ghetto Blacks.
I'll leave you with this. In a lot of cases, Whites do not want to live around what they consider to be "White trash", that are loud and obnoxious, and get into domestic disputes, etc. just embarrassing to live next to. It is the same phenomenon.
That is true. No one really wants to live in a ghetto. I had to ask because this is the pattern I see. Blacks with the means and the diligence often leave the inner city and head for the suburbs. There are some who don't want Blacks there and then leave. And then later on, some of the elements that many Blacks sought to get away from end up in those areas. I know that not all "ghetto Blacks" live in the projects. Actually, I didn't think of this. I never thought to look at section 8. That can play a factor.
Having never been to Virginia, I am not familiar with how the Tidewater area works. I do notice that Chesapeake has a large Black population and it has a somewhat high income level, and a low crime rate. It would seem like a good place to go to. I think, perhaps, that Virginia has a different dynamic than Ohio. I do know there is a large military factor here.
In the Atlanta area, where I am living, the first place we were at was an apartment complex. We knew nothing about the area. My mother was shocked about the crime that existed, even in the suburbs where we were living. We had no idea the part of town we were staying in was sketchy. We just stayed in an apartment complex for about a year and a half. I found out when I was older that there were drugs there, and someone was even murdered across the street from the apartment complex. I had no idea. I was a kid. We got out, and went to an exurb 40 minutes away. There were many decent Black people where we were living, and like my family, we were just there temporarily until we got a house or something. When we moved, we went to a rural area. I was one of the few Black people living out there. Interestingly, the subdivision where we got the house was not that far away from trashy people.
I can understand many White people don't want to live around trashy people as well. I think the difference is this. I believe that Black people have a harder time getting away from it. It isn't because Blacks who seek to do so don't want to. It depends on where you are. I went into some of the wealthier areas like East Cobb. Wealthy, most White. Homes costing $350,000+. I never saw trailer parks, and I only saw one apartment complex, and it was an expensive one.
Why? Because Ohio's school ratings system doesn't do a very good job of measuring the quality of the schools themselves, but instead measures what the students bring to the schools. The measurement correlates almost perfectly with the percentage of students in poverty, which is a problem (and certainly does not make a district like CH-UH look very good).
Do you think CH-UH schools are above or below that line?
Also, when you look at non-economically disadvantaged students and compare across districts, there's still a difference.
OGT results (10th grade) (ED - economically disadvantaged, NED - not economically disadvantaged)
Math
CH - ED68, NED84
SH - ED68, NED89
Beachwood - ED 82, NED>95
Reading
CH - ED77, NED89
SH - ED82, NED 92
Beachwood - ED82, NED >95
I'd say that those numbers are actually pretty darn comparable, certainly nothing that indicts CH-UH as being terrible.
I honestly don't feel like getting into a heated debate over educational data, but the poverty correlation is a rule of thumb that simply challenges the efficacy of the current state rating system. That said, if we were really going to compare the quality of the school districts in question, we'd have to find a way to hold constant a host of many other factors along with poverty, including percentage special education, percentage gifted, length in school district, family income at higher levels, and many other variables. Certainly would not be an easy task even if one did have access to such information.
I can only offer my own experience as a longtime inner city resident. Most inner city residents just want peace and quiet and to be left alone. But, a relatively small criminal "thug" element will not co-operate, preferring to beat and rob other people. The media does not help by glamorizing the thugs in films and music. Add in the fact that in 1950, more than 80% of Black children were legitimate and were raised in a home with both their mother and FATHER there....crime was MUCH lower, the neighborhoods were far safer. Then in 1964, the federal government starts paying women to have illegitimate kids! The result? Now, 80% of Black kids are ILLEGITIMATE, no father in the house, teen boys who rebel against the female society they are raised in and want to prove they are "men"---you can see the results of all this. Just my opinion, but the U.S. Congress since 1965 is CRIMINAL in doing NOTHING to restore the Black family to where it was in 1950, with safe secure homes for the children. Both parties are to blame for this OUTRAGE, and the current president is guilty, too!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
