United dehubbing (Cleveland, Euclid, East Cleveland: real estate, bankrupt, housing)

[avg12]

Frontier is expanding in CLE.

Frontier Airlines adding nonstops from Cleveland to Seattle, Orlando | cleveland.com

It's increasing the CLE-DEN flight service to 12 flights a week, adding CLE-MCO year round but 4 flights a week, and CLE-SEA seasonal 3 flights a week. This in addition to CLE-TTN that was already announced that goes up to 4x weekly in the summer.

The CLE-SEA is the most interesting. It won't have a direct competitor but it's still a long stage flight.

SEA-CLE is a red-eye return and CLE-SEA is late morning. Possibly Frontier is trying to attract the Cleveland to Alaska cruise/Vancouver/Seattle summer traffic but it might get some business traffic.

I'd expect more CLE-Florida next winter if CLE-MCO is supported. More CLE-westbound might happen as well too.

[jam1919]

Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan

Are you sure? That sounds low. It has to be more. Grand Rapids alone which is not a hub has 120 daily flights a day.

125 is for departures only.

This Saturday for example, besides United:
Air Canada - 2 flights
American - 12 flights
Frontier - 3 flights
Delta - 9 flights
Southwest - 7 flights
US Airways - 6 flights
= 39 departures.

The 120 for Grand Rapids might be departures + arrival (so they'd be 60 departures per day).

This would assume the current airlines don't increase their flights though, which I expect them to do with United exiting several markets in the fall. Plus they will add capacity. American will probably add some mainline jets for example, they only have 2 currently.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by jam1919

Hey, if American wants to eliminate their only hub in the South, more power to them. It doesn't seem like that would be the smartest thing to do revenue wise and dropping the 4th most profitable hub in the country will probably not make the most value for their sharedholders. Further they would be reduced to 3 of their hubs on the East Coast as slot controlled and unable to grow against the other airlines. Optimizing routes and mainly dropping duplicate international flights, sure, but dropping ALL of your 2nd largest hub that is in a region where your only competitor is Delta at Atlanta... haha laughable.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so daunting. They probably won't pull out completely the same as how United didn't leave CLE completely. What they'll likely do is pare it down to the most profitable routes. Why that's so hard to fathom, I'll never know. It has happened in several cities already.

I'm sure United and Delta would love this the most. United would become the largest airline in the country again, American would bump back down to third, and Delta would have the only hub in the South at Atlanta allowing them to dominate connections and raise prices.

What part of transitioning do you not understand. And, the last time I checked DFW is in the south too.

Time to sit down, eat some popcorn, and watch what happens. Maybe time to buy Delta stock if you think AA will leave the south to one airline?

IAH -> Houston -> United
DFW -> Dallas -> AA
MIA -> Miami -> AA
ATL -> Atlanta -> Delta

4 airports, 3 airlines, all in the south.

Also, your expert at the GAO is just guessing like anybody else.

He isn't my expert. He's their expert. See the Brookings article for further reinforcement.

[jam1919]

Originally Posted by avg12

Possibly Frontier is trying to attract the Cleveland to Alaska cruise/Vancouver/Seattle summer traffic but it might get some business traffic. It's still an interesting addition.

Frontier is in the process of re-inventing itself as an ultra-low cost carrier like Spirit, so that would make sense. Should be a nice route for leisure travelers.

[avg12]

Originally Posted by jam1919

Frontier is in the process of re-inventing itself as an ultra-low cost carrier like Spirit, so that would make sense. Should be a nice route for leisure travelers.

Yeah. But, I hope that it does not become a Spirit clone though.

I wouldn't mind it being somewhat between Southwest and Spirit in service level, as it currently is between them.

I think it'll still be unique in it's own right as well servicing markets like Madison WI that neither Southwest or Spirit service, and tertiary airports like St.Augustine, FL (UST) over Jacksonville to save costs.

I've flown them a number of times, and unlike using Spirit, I don't mind flying again on Frontier. It's growing rapidly out of Trenton.

[jam1919]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

It would be laughable if it wasn't so daunting. They probably won't pull out completely the same as how United didn't leave CLE completely. What they'll likely do is pare it down to the most profitable routes. Why that's so hard to fathom, I'll never know. It has happened in several cities already.


What part of transitioning do you not understand. And, the last time I checked DFW is in the south too.


IAH -> Houston -> United
DFW -> Dallas -> AA
MIA -> Miami -> AA
ATL -> Atlanta -> Delta

4 airports, 3 airlines, all in the south.



He isn't my expert. He's their expert. See the Brookings article for further reinforcement.

This all started when you tried to "downplay" O&D travel and freaked out somebody said Charlotte and Salt Lake City are the only smaller cities that have done well as hubs due to geographic isolation.

"Btw, Charlotte/SLC are minor destinations. Both are considerably smaller than NEO in both population and GRP. NEO has more F500/F1000 companies than both regions combined. To even suggest that either has significantly more origin/destination traffic than NEO is patently absurd (especially with SLC). The major difference between the 3 is the location and the parent airline. And, if O/D is so important, how does the Delta hub at SLC survive? I doubt that its geography has much to do with it. It probably has more to do with the competency of the company running it."

You were first saying O&D is not that important and saying the competency of the airline is more important. Now you are all of a sudden the champion for O&D as the biggest reason a hub can exist.

It is strange.

[jam1919]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

It would be laughable if it wasn't so daunting. They probably won't pull out completely the same as how United didn't leave CLE completely. What they'll likely do is pare it down to the most profitable routes. Why that's so hard to fathom, I'll never know. It has happened in several cities already.



What part of transitioning do you not understand. And, the last time I checked DFW is in the south too.

The South is a pretty big place.

Charlotte's actually closer to Cleveland than Dallas.

Cleveland to Charlotte is a 68 minute flight over 430 miles.

Dallas to Charlotte is a 2 hour 18 minute flight over 936 miles (about half way across the country).

I don't think Dallas and Charlotte are really in the same region as far as hubs go, unless somebody flying from Jacksonville, FL to Raleigh, NC is going to fly 2 hours and 20 minutes west and then 2 hours and 20 minutes back just to fly within the south/east coast corridor.

Then again, if Charlotte de-hubs, one could always fly through the Atlanta mega hub on Delta. I'm sure loyal US Airways/ new AA fliers will prefer to fly an hour south to Miami just to turnaround and fly back to the rest of the country and they won't jump loyalty programs to Delta.

Perhaps Delta should de-hub as well in Atlanta. Charlotte is 20% O&D. Atlanta with over 1,000 flights per day on Delta is only 23% O&D. Clearly these two southern hubs must close and the entire region must fly to Texas, Miami, or the Northeast to connect!

[avg12]

Originally Posted by jam1919

Should be a nice route for leisure travelers.

I know that I'm thinking way too ahead, but Frontier might even pick up some business routes like CLE-RDU.

But, I think it will be cautious over the next 6-9 months on what Southwest and Delta decide to do at CLE. Southwest could consolidate it's CAK operations up at CLE, including moving CAK-BOS to CLE-BOS, and have 30 departures a day at CLE. Delta might launch BOS-CLE and maybe BOS-RDU. I think the BOS route will get another carrier other than UA, but probably not Frontier.

Southwest however might not have the bandwidth as they are expanding in DCA, LGA and DAL and have international plans for BWI, HOU and ATL as well.

United has kept CLE-MKE and CLE-ALB among some other routes, like CLE-LAS and a number of CLE-Florida leisure routes, but it may end these point to point routes when competition opens up on them especially the Florida and LAS routes. It is a spoke to hub carrier and generally has more interest in feeding their international gateways rather than being involved as much in CLE point to point routes, or any point to point routes not involving a hub.

However, maybe it builds up IAD and CAK-IAD is added?

[Republic of Michigan]

Originally Posted by jam1919

125 is for departures only.

This Saturday for example, besides United:
Air Canada - 2 flights
American - 12 flights
Frontier - 3 flights
Delta - 9 flights
Southwest - 7 flights
US Airways - 6 flights
= 39 departures.

The 120 for Grand Rapids might be departures + arrival (so they'd be 60 departures per day).

This would assume the current airlines don't increase their flights though, which I expect them to do with United exiting several markets in the fall. Plus they will add capacity. American will probably add some mainline jets for example, they only have 2 currently.

Yes...You are correct

[jam1919]

Good news for CLE from Delta Connection!!!

Delta will had once daily, 6 days per week, service from Cleveland to Indianapolis. Flight is operated by Endeavor Air on a CRJ200 regional jet.

In addition, Delta will had daily service from Cleveland to Raleigh, NC. The flight will be operated by a CRJ700 aircraft by ExpressJet.

Service starts June 5th to both destinations that will be canceled by United.