Ohio City renaissance (Columbus, Cleveland, Beachwood: sale, 2015, house)

[BuckeyeYup]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

People avoid Shaker because of taxes. People avoid CH because of taxes and crap schools and crime in some areas (even less for the money, at least Shaker could be justified).

Markets aren't designed to go ever and always upward. People are going to get burned, sooner or later. Cleveland really has no reason to see such high prices with so many vacant buildings in the city. We could literally double the population and and still have a decent amount of space. I'll just say it, you are a fool if you spend 600k for one of these Ohio City homes (even though I love Ohio city). Unpopular opinion, but that's how I read the tea leaves here.

Are Lakewood taxes that much cheaper? They don't seem to be. I understand Ohio City taxes are very cheap, but as soon as you add a kid - that tax savings isn't much of a savings any more.

I like Ohio City too, but am glad you agree on these half million dollar houses...

[TBideon]

I don't understand these arguments. If someone wants to build and buy half a million dollar home, then why do people care so much and challenge these decisions? And who is anyone to say those homes are too expensive when clearly there's a market for them. Maybe the homeowners live living walking distance from downtown while still retaining the neighborhood feel. Maybe people like the overall urban fabric of the area and dislike the sterility of the suburbs. Maybe people like that cigar lounge on Lorain and West Side Market and Great Lakes Brewery and all the other cute shops out there, and want to support them as locals rather than local tourists. Maybe they'll send their kids to private schools or go charter or parochial. Maybe they like living near other surging near west side communities and want to be part of that movement.

Generally, neighborhoods like these go both ways - residential property is expensive or cheap; there isn't always a significant middle ground. Construction is pricey as hell these days.

[BuckeyeYup]

Originally Posted by TBideon

I don't understand these arguments. If someone wants to build and buy half a million dollar home, then why do people care so much and challenge these decisions? And who is anyone to say those homes are too expensive when clearly there's a market for them. Maybe the homeowners live living walking distance from downtown while still retaining the neighborhood feel. Maybe people like the overall urban fabric of the area and dislike the sterility of the suburbs. Maybe people like that cigar lounge on Lorain and West Side Market and Great Lakes Brewery and all the other cute shops out there, and want to support them as locals rather than local tourists. Maybe they'll send their kids to private schools or go charter or parochial. Maybe they like living near other surging near west side communities and want to be part of that movement.

Generally, neighborhoods like these go both ways - residential property is expensive or cheap; there isn't always a significant middle ground. Construction is pricey as hell these days.

Pretty sure the point of this forum is to literally talk **** and speculate on neighborhoods... Point out good deals, bad deals, great spots, bad spots, and in this case, when there's too much hype....

I think most people here own real estate or are planning on buying real estate, so how isn't the discussion relevant?

If past performance indicated future returns, "derr there's clearly a market for it" ... there would be no bubbles, investment opportunities, etc.

You're acting like this is a perfect economic market - all buyers are aware of everything, etc. when in reality people are getting swindled by hype from early investors and community boosters who invested 5 years ago... If these people see a fraction of the returns that the flippers have, I will eat my words. Only time will tell.

If someone likes enough to justify the expense $500K of a house - all the power to him. But some of us need good deals, property values to rise, etc. so that's where speculating on a random internet website comes in...

If these properties were so inherently valuable, flippers and banks wouldn't have been trading them for the price of a honda accord a few years ago... They invested, painted and promoted.... now are you ready to buy for the price of a rolls royce?

[TBideon]

Sure their opinions are relevant to the board topic; I just find them somewhat silly. And there's an underlying negative tone within some of these comments i.e. Cleveland neighborhoods are not good enough to support expensive housing, and anyone thinking otherwise is foolish, even if the market says otherwise. You know that whole self-hating Clevelander cliché? I'm seeing aspects of that here.

[BuckeyeYup]

Originally Posted by TBideon

Sure their opinions are relevant to the board topic; I just think find them somewhat silly. And there's an underlying negative tone within some of these comments i.e. Cleveland neighborhoods are not good enough for expensive housing. Perhaps not as strong as some of self-hating Clevelander cliché, but there's some overlap.

So I am not a Clevelander because I live in Lakewood?

We can read into comments and get as small and petty as we want... why not roll with overall message. Let me ask you, where would you invest $500K in North East Ohio? Would you be buying one of these houses off Lorain Ave with Cleveland Public Schools if you had to worry about resale (a reality for most of us who aren't rich)?

The Rockefeller houses are in East Cleveland ... they are a treasure, but they are in East Cleveland. I don't see why calling basics has to be an insult to the city of Cleveland?

[TBideon]

If I invested $500K in NE Ohio, I'd probably buy in Lakewood or Rocky River; living near and by water is important to me. As for worries about city schools, well, that's always a concern for people living in urban markets in (most) major US cities. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable risking that kind of investment within Cleveland's city limits, but there are clearly a lot of people who do and I think we should support and applaud those decisions. There are quite a few 300 and 400 thousand dollar homes in Tremont, and no one bats an eye. I say go with it.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Rising prices are not necessarily a good indicator of an economy's health. This is pretty basic.

As for dense, urban, walkable on the east coast. The people who live in these expensive neighborhoods also typically have cars. Don't believe me? Check and see any of the new luxury apartments in these areas websites- they all have garages. All of them. Streets are jam packed in terms of parking. At least in Boston, it seems that there are more cars than ever now. People are not choosing urban over suburban really. They are choosing sexy nightlife and reserving the right to get out of town on demand. I am one of a handful of people I know that actually "lives" the urban life here.

Rising real-estate prices are largely due to a national shortage of housing. Construction still hasn't really recovered from the recession, and most cities are seeing price increases due to demand and few available homes. I'm not sure what the existing demand is overall in Cleveland, but at least some of the urban areas are seeing demand and likely little existing quality (renovated or new) housing, so the ones that are there can pull in the higher prices.
Cars are necessary in most American cities because transit is varying levels of terrible and because zoning laws often require parking to be built beyond the actual demand, incentivizing driving over any other form of transit, including biking or walking. The concept of induced demand has been shown to be true over and over again. Let's face it, Boston transit is still crappy compared to actual transit-oriented cities globally. I would say only New York and Chicago are decent in this regard. I would also say that, unlike some other parts of the world, Americans view transit as something for the poor. There is still a healthy car culture in the US that doesn't exist other places. It was romanticized for a century as the epitome of freedom and class.

[TBideon]

DC isn't too shabby. Probably third best in the country.

[bjimmy24]

I've never said you can't spend your money however you want. I just think it's dumb to spend that major cash on in my opinion a dubious investment. I think this about most trendy neighborhoods anywhere, not just ohio city, if that makes anyone feel better.

[btownboss4]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Maybe they don't use them for every little errand, but in my own experience, they do. Anecdotal, but since you gave an anecdote, I think it's fair. I have 3 roommates, all with cars. They use them to go to work, grocery store, even sometimes to the convenience store maybe 2 minute walk away. The only exception is to go drink, in which case uber or lyft is used (though not always).

What I'm saying is that these people don't want an urban life. They want a convenient life. My roommates and friends leave town very frequently on weekends in addition to using cars for commute and errands. The people who live in the luxury buildings are even less urban. They want anonymous isolated existence away from other people.

Somebody uses the MBTA, it has 1.3 million riders/Day, 43% of greater Boston drives to work so huge portions of people take Transit, Walk or Bike. Cleveland is about at Atlanta level with 80-85% Car share, compared to Houston at 96%