Visitor's perception of Cleveland and its burbs (Columbus, Rocky River: houses, neighborhoods)
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There was nothing humorous in your post, especially when you consider the negative tone to many of your posts. You perhaps took the responses as defensive and offensive to you. Personally, I thought your post was ridiculous, given the weather and time of day, as are many of your posts. The reason is that I've been downtown when foot traffic is sparse, but also when things are really hopping (e.g., Playhouse Square after noon gets very busy on weekends with the afternoon matinees; I know that from years of personal experience. Why do you think there is about a dozen significant restaurants and a major hotel in Playhouse Square???). That's the reality of Cleveland, not some nuclear wasteland dis. It sounds as if you don't want to be anywhere there are crowds, but then complain when there isn't sufficient foot traffic to meet your standards.
We get that you want a major downtown with a sufficient density to have considerable foot traffic at all times during the day. That obviously isn't Cleveland currently, especially on bad weather days or when there isn't an event downtown. Why would anybody compare densely packed coastal cities with Cleveland???
It's instructive that your Cleveland perspective is so different from that of Minervah, who also migrated as a single senior citizen from the Pacific Northwest. E.g., she's fond of Lakewood and you apparently are not.
If Cleveland isn't for you, we get it. Just don't expect us to agree that all of your posts of worthy of objective credibility without comment, and then to insult us by saying that we were offended or defensive when we disagree with you.
Not every place is for everybody, and I do hope you find some place that meets all of your requirements.
Yes, I realize that you find me overly negative and now "ridiculous" as you like to point out. I wish I could see Cleveland through your eyes but alas I can't. I think you exaggerate/distort my "negativity" - the gist of it has been a sense of frustration and even curiosity that while Cleveland has great "bones" - architecture, spaces, lake - it seems like a ghost town at many times. I go through downtown almost on a daily basis at different times of day and I see few people except in front of the Casino/Tower City which is a hangout for what appear to be ne'er-do-wells. And I also find the blighted areas (outside of downtown) depressing - seems in too many areas there's a decent few blocks and then it's bad.
Ok...you say CLE is an event driven town. Fine...but why not entertain ideas of how it might draw more people to live/work there? Doesn't that benefit many? I don't expect it to be like coastal cities but as I've said, it would be nice to see a bit more life downtown on a regular basis. Remember the song "Downtown" by Petula Clark? Well, a little of that would be nice but perhaps unrealistic for Cleveland.
I'm sure hearing "outsiders" like me complain or say something unflattering about "your" city is offensive and tiresome and it is natural to defend Cleveland. I have said some good things about the area also (great cultural amenities, architecture, people are nice).
I don't know how my perspective vs. Minervah's is "instructive" to you - she is originally from Chicago and has said Cleveland is a bit reminiscent of that area, so perhaps feels more familiar and appealing. I'm from New England and this landscape is totally different/alien to me. I don't want to speak for her but I think she and I both appreciate that Cleveland is less pretentious, expensive, crowded, full of hipsters etc than Portland and Seattle are, our last places of residence. I like Lakewood more than I did before as I get used to it (I think I said I didn't early on when I hated everything here because it was all so strange to me). She's also been here longer than I have which might make a difference.
Last edited by october2007; 05-08-2017 at 07:07 AM..
^The last time I was in downtown Boston it was absolutely dead, and that was on a Saturday night! The only human interaction we came across were four minority transvestites. Not joking either. Things only got worse as we made our way back to our hotel across from Fenway. Ew.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,068 posts, read 7,310,654 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007
Yes, I realize that you find me overly negative and now "ridiculous" as you like to point out. I wish I could see Cleveland through your eyes but alas I can't. I think you exaggerate/distort my "negativity" - the gist of it has been a sense of frustration and even curiosity that while Cleveland has great "bones" - architecture, spaces, lake - it seems like a ghost town at many times. I go through downtown almost on a daily basis at different times of day and I see few people except in front of the Casino/Tower City which is a hangout for what appear to be ne'er-do-wells. And I also find the blighted areas (outside of downtown) depressing - seems in too many areas there's a decent few blocks and then it's bad.
Ok...you say CLE is an event driven town. Fine...but why not entertain ideas of how it might draw more people to live/work there? Doesn't that benefit many? I don't expect it to be like coastal cities but as I've said, it would be nice to see a bit more life downtown on a regular basis. Remember the song "Downtown" by Petula Clark? Well, a little of that would be nice but perhaps unrealistic for Cleveland.
I'm sure hearing "outsiders" like me complain or say something unflattering about "your" city is offensive and tiresome and it is natural to defend Cleveland. I have said some good things about the area also (great cultural amenities, architecture, people are nice).
I don't know how my perspective vs. Minervah's is "instructive" to you - she is originally from Chicago and has said Cleveland is a bit reminiscent of that area, so perhaps feels more familiar and appealing. I'm from New England and this landscape is totally different/alien to me. I don't want to speak for her but I think she and I both appreciate that Cleveland is less pretentious, expensive, crowded, full of hipsters etc than Portland and Seattle are, our last places of residence. I like Lakewood more than I did before as I get used to it (I think I said I didn't early on when I hated everything here because it was all so strange to me). She's also been here longer than I have which might make a difference.
Well, you know I am sympathetic to your viewpoint. In my case it's partly because living in Chicago for 20 years has pretty much spoiled me for most other cities... not just Cleveland... but it's also because I'm old enough to remember when Cleveland city had more than 800,000 people and downtown was a really bustling place.
I do see many positive developments though, and that's a good sign. A few parts of Cleveland are looking spiffier than I've ever seen them.
I go through downtown almost on a daily basis at different times of day and I see few people except in front of the Casino/Tower City which is a hangout for what appear to be ne'er-do-wells. And I also find the blighted areas (outside of downtown) depressing - seems in too many areas there's a decent few blocks and then it's bad.
Public Square is a transit hub (by Tower City), and it's strange but I don't consider it just a hang-out for "ne'er-do-wells." My perception is that you have little perception of life in many U.S. urban centers, despite your claims to the contrary.
This is the kind of paragraph that strikes me as an exaggeration at best, and a distortion of reality at worse. The area from the innerbelt to Ohio City is not blighted in any sense. If you take Carnegie, Chester or Euclid Ave. from downtown to University Circle, you're quickly either in an industrial area or an area of gentrification. You have areas such as the Asia Plaza.
As someone who enjoys locations such as Superior Pho, as do many Clevelanders such as Michael Symon, certainly a "coastal American," I could see how someone riding by it might consider it blighted, never knowing the great though somewhat pedestrian character that lies within it. Clevelanders apparently enjoy the process of rebirth. You want the finish product, on the very cheap.
Driving down Detroit Ave., I have the same experience. I read articles such as this and wonder what things will be like in two decades, as well as what is your problem.
The gritty process of urban renewal obviously appeals to some persons, but not to you.
Perhaps you need to get specific about where you are going. It's possible that you're taking all RTA routes and going through blighted areas that are among the worse in Cuyahoga County, and certainly areas that I don't visit. I'll admit that a stretch of East 55th St. between I-90 and I-490 is still forlorn, but that is changing.
When I read articles such as the above one, and also remember what downtown Cleveland once had become (I remember when East 4th St. was a creepy shortcut with a Burger King across from The Arcade) and when there was a porn district across from the West Side Market, your complaints and condescension seem that of someone coming from an extraordinarily wealthy city (Seattle) and comparing it to Cleveland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007
Ok...you say CLE is an event driven town. Fine...but why not entertain ideas of how it might draw more people to live/work there? Doesn't that benefit many? I don't expect it to be like coastal cities but as I've said, it would be nice to see a bit more life downtown on a regular basis. Remember the song "Downtown" by Petula Clark? Well, a little of that would be nice but perhaps unrealistic for Cleveland.
Somehow, perhaps intentionally (time of day that you travel), you apparently miss those times when downtown is really active. Have you never been on East 4th and Prospect when there is an Indians or Cavs game? Have you never been in Playhouse Square when the five or more theaters are staging productions at the same time?
As someone who doesn't frequent sports venues, clubs and other entertainment venues, and apparently not even the substantial theater district, you're oblivious to it. You don't like casinos, but many Americans for some reason find them great fun. I know several persons who love playing slot machines that are otherwise very reputable individuals. Have you ever been to Vegas???
You have these empty suggestions to improve Cleveland with no actual perception of what immense progress already has taken place and what additional progress remains in the works. Thousands more are anticipated to be living downtown within a few years.
Have you ever seen the theaters of PlayhouseSquare? What unified theater complex in the U.S., apart from Lincoln Center, have you found superior in the U.S.? Do you have any perception, any at all, of what an immense achievement has taken place in PlayhouseSquare???
You remind me of the type of person who visits a friend's new house, which has been remodeled and refurbished, and then makes snide comments about how it could be better, although you personally have never accomplished any remotely equal task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007
I'm sure hearing "outsiders" like me complain or say something unflattering about "your" city is offensive and tiresome and it is natural to defend Cleveland. I have said some good things about the area also (great cultural amenities, architecture, people are nice).
What bothers me are inaccurate inferences (downtown Cleveland always is empty) and an implied demand that your perceptions should be imposed on everyone.
No one would guess from your comments that Cleveland hosted one of the most praised political conventions in recent history while impressing most of the participants. Explain to us how "your Cleveland" could ever be so appealing to those from across the U.S.? Is Cleveland home to the world's greatest magicians? When I re-read the following article, I recalled your comments that downtown Cleveland wasn't very walkable.
<<
“On two key measures – public transit and walkability – Cleveland ranked first among the six finalists for the 2016 Republican National Convention. A third benchmark – traffic congestion – rated Cleveland almost the least likely to have gridlock, trailing only Kansas City.”
In the city’s downtown core, where the convention is taking place, Cleveland’s transit scores are 90 and 84, respectively, according to walkscore.com. Some of the competitors fare equally in one category, but neither score as highly in both.>>
The question you should ask yourself is how are you different from the many persons who appreciate Cleveland and its resurgence, and where you could live that would make you happier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007
I don't know how my perspective vs. Minervah's is "instructive" to you - she is originally from Chicago and has said Cleveland is a bit reminiscent of that area, so perhaps feels more familiar and appealing. I'm from New England and this landscape is totally different/alien to me. I don't want to speak for her but I think she and I both appreciate that Cleveland is less pretentious, expensive, crowded, full of hipsters etc than Portland and Seattle are, our last places of residence. I like Lakewood more than I did before as I get used to it (I think I said I didn't early on when I hated everything here because it was all so strange to me). She's also been here longer than I have which might make a difference.
Exactly, Minervah is a different person from you. Most of us are different from you. Obviously, I viscerally disagree with many of your comments. That doesn't make me or others "defensive" when we objectively point out why your comments truly are ridiculous, and document those opinions.
The only reason I'm taking the time to disagree with you so vehemently is so that other persons unfamiliar with Cleveland and reading your vociferous comments will have a contrary perspective.
BTW, see post 2 here. Minervah apparently enjoyed Cleveland from the beginning.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,068 posts, read 7,310,654 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Public Square is a transit hub (by Tower City), and it's strange but I don't consider it just a hang-out for "ne'er-do-wells." My perception is that you have little perception of life in many U.S. urban centers, despite your claims to the contrary.
Of course most U.S. urban centers have ne'er-do-wells lolling about. But in the more vibrant city centers, such people are outnumbered. In downtown Cleveland -- in particular Public Square in front of Tower City -- this is not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
You have areas such as the Asia Plaza. As someone who enjoys locations such as Superior Pho, as do many Clevelanders such as Michael Symon, certainly a "coastal American," I could see how someone riding by it might consider it blighted, never knowing the great though somewhat pedestrian character that lies within it. Clevelanders apparently enjoy the process of rebirth. You want the finish product, on the very cheap.
Shortly after moving back, I did Asiatown on foot... and still perceived it as semi-blighted. Despite what gems it might contain here and there, it is not an area that knocks one off one's feet.
As for the "process of rebirth", most major cities already went through that decades ago, and moved on. In that same time, Cleveland has seemed stalled and behind the times. Hopefully it will someday catch up, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Driving down Detroit Ave., I have the same experience. I read articles such as this and wonder what things will be like in two decades, as well as what is your problem.
Traveling down Detroit Avenue, I see a few blocks of "Wow" at Gordon Square, and still the same ugly dreck in either direction outside that area, punctuated almost imperceptibly by a few interesting places here and there. (Of course, I've been spoiled by having had the privilege to live in Chicago's mid-North Side for 20 years.)
IIRC, october2007 is 60. I myself am 56. Perhaps we don't feel we have "two decades" to wait for a city to finally become what it ought to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
The gritty process of urban renewal obviously appeals to some persons, but not to you.
Again, cities like Chicago and Seattle already went through that process decades ago. The fact that Cleveland is still -- in fits and starts, no less -- going through that process feels like a big comedown to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
When I read articles such as the above one, and also remember what downtown Cleveland once had become (I remember when East 4th St. was a creepy shortcut with a Burger King across from The Arcade) and when there was a porn district across from the West Side Market, your complaints and condescension seem that of someone coming from an extraordinarily wealthy city (Seattle) and comparing it to Cleveland.
When I was in Chicago, I saw gritty, rough neighborhoods transform virtually overnight. Contrast this to Cleveland, where a neighborhood like Ohio City began gentrifying as far back as the late 1960s and still isn't finished today.
There's wealth in Cleveland. It's just that too much of it has been concentrated in the suburbs all these years, while the city proper was all but neglected. Hopefully that will change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
You don't like casinos, but many Americans for some reason find them great fun. I know several persons who love playing slot machines that are otherwise very reputable individuals. Have you ever been to Vegas???
I don't like casinos either, and Vegas holds no interest for me. But more to the point, I have observed that when older Midwestern and Northeastern cities introduce casinos, it's usually a desperate attempt to revive a local economy that's in its death throes. I do not consider the sprouting up of casinos a good sign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
You remind me of the type of person who visits a friend's new house, which has been remodeled and refurbished, and then makes snide comments about how it could be better, although you personally have never accomplished any remotely equal task.
Cleveland is more like the friend's house that was remodeled in just a room or two, maybe got half remodeled in another two rooms but then the remodeling was halted, and the rest of the house was left to fall into ruin.
Well, you know I am sympathetic to your viewpoint. In my case it's partly because living in Chicago for 20 years has pretty much spoiled me for most other cities... not just Cleveland... but it's also because I'm old enough to remember when Cleveland city had more than 800,000 people and downtown was a really bustling place.
I do see many positive developments though, and that's a good sign. A few parts of Cleveland are looking spiffier than I've ever seen them.
That's a good point. I feel sort of the same way - I've lived in a few really appealing cities and they do kind of spoil you for other places. Cleveland also feels like a very masculine city to me.
I think that's part of what I've felt about Cleveland - that there is a faded glory about it, as though it used to be something greater (which I guess is true - it has suffered from people leaving for the suburbs, and then the recession of 2008). But glad to hear you see some positive developments around town. I think I can trust your perception and maybe things are on the upswing.
Of course most U.S. urban centers have ne'er-do-wells lolling about. But in the more vibrant city centers, such people are outnumbered. In downtown Cleveland -- in particular Public Square in front of Tower City -- this is not the case.
Shortly after moving back, I did Asiatown on foot... and still perceived it as semi-blighted. Despite what gems it might contain here and there, it is not an area that knocks one off one's feet.
As for the "process of rebirth", most major cities already went through that decades ago, and moved on. In that same time, Cleveland has seemed stalled and behind the times. Hopefully it will someday catch up, however.
Traveling down Detroit Avenue, I see a few blocks of "Wow" at Gordon Square, and still the same ugly dreck in either direction outside that area, punctuated almost imperceptibly by a few interesting places here and there. (Of course, I've been spoiled by having had the privilege to live in Chicago's mid-North Side for 20 years.)
IIRC, october2007 is 60. I myself am 56. Perhaps we don't feel we have "two decades" to wait for a city to finally become what it ought to be.
Again, cities like Chicago and Seattle already went through that process decades ago. The fact that Cleveland is still -- in fits and starts, no less -- going through that process feels like a big comedown to us.
When I was in Chicago, I saw gritty, rough neighborhoods transform virtually overnight. Contrast this to Cleveland, where a neighborhood like Ohio City began gentrifying as far back as the late 1960s and still isn't finished today.
There's wealth in Cleveland. It's just that too much of it has been concentrated in the suburbs all these years, while the city proper was all but neglected. Hopefully that will change.
I don't like casinos either, and Vegas holds no interest for me. But more to the point, I have observed that when older Midwestern and Northeastern cities introduce casinos, it's usually a desperate attempt to revive a local economy that's in its death throes. I do not consider the sprouting up of casinos a good sign.
Cleveland is more like the friend's house that was remodeled in just a room or two, maybe got half remodeled in another two rooms but then the remodeling was halted, and the rest of the house was left to fall into ruin.
I couldn't have responded better. TY. Your insights into this area are very helpful.
Yes, I am 60 and your point is good - we don't have time to wait for CLE to blossom.
I first moved to Seattle in 1989 and it wasn't anything like it is today but I was younger then and hadn't experienced much so even though it was kind of unsophisticated and rough around the edges (actually I liked it better then), it had the stunning physical beauty and very low cost of living which made it appealing and livable. Cleveland may get there but I do fear it will take too long. In 1970s Seattle there was a huge downturn in their economy related to Boeing and people were moving out of the city - there was even a billboard that said "Would the last person leaving turn out the lights." But somehow they got it together in not too long and went on to become a booming city (but as I've said, it has been somewhat ruined in the process).
Last edited by october2007; 05-08-2017 at 03:37 PM..
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,068 posts, read 7,310,654 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007
I couldn't have responded better. TY. Your insights into this area are very helpful.
Yes, I am 60 and your point is good - we don't have time to wait for CLE to blossom.
I first moved to Seattle in 1989 and it wasn't anything like it is today but I was younger then and hadn't experienced much so even though it was kind of unsophisticated and rough around the edges (actually I liked it better then), it had the stunning physical beauty and very low cost of living which made it appealing and livable. Cleveland may get there but I do fear it will take too long.
Don't get me wrong. Cleveland has quite a bit of great stuff -- in culture, the arts, entertainment, dining, recreation, etc. -- but one has to be able to turn a blind eye to an awful lot to make living here work. And some of us aren't nearly as good at doing that as others are.
Don't get me wrong. Cleveland has quite a bit of great stuff -- in culture, the arts, entertainment, dining, recreation, etc. -- but one has to be able to turn a blind eye to an awful lot to make living here work. And some of us aren't nearly as good at doing that as others are.
Yes, I understand. I think being new here it's hard to know what to make of certain areas...I just heard someone got shot during the afternoon in Brooklyn which I had thought was a relatively good/safe area. I think one can carve out a good life here with effort and I suppose my being on buses so much in not so great areas doesn't make it easy to turn a blind eye much of the time.
Of course most U.S. urban centers have ne'er-do-wells lolling about. But in the more vibrant city centers, such people are outnumbered. In downtown Cleveland -- in particular Public Square in front of Tower City -- this is not the case.
Shortly after moving back, I did Asiatown on foot... and still perceived it as semi-blighted. Despite what gems it might contain here and there, it is not an area that knocks one off one's feet.
As for the "process of rebirth", most major cities already went through that decades ago, and moved on. In that same time, Cleveland has seemed stalled and behind the times. Hopefully it will someday catch up, however.
Traveling down Detroit Avenue, I see a few blocks of "Wow" at Gordon Square, and still the same ugly dreck in either direction outside that area, punctuated almost imperceptibly by a few interesting places here and there. (Of course, I've been spoiled by having had the privilege to live in Chicago's mid-North Side for 20 years.)
IIRC, october2007 is 60. I myself am 56. Perhaps we don't feel we have "two decades" to wait for a city to finally become what it ought to be.
Again, cities like Chicago and Seattle already went through that process decades ago. The fact that Cleveland is still -- in fits and starts, no less -- going through that process feels like a big comedown to us.
When I was in Chicago, I saw gritty, rough neighborhoods transform virtually overnight. Contrast this to Cleveland, where a neighborhood like Ohio City began gentrifying as far back as the late 1960s and still isn't finished today.
There's wealth in Cleveland. It's just that too much of it has been concentrated in the suburbs all these years, while the city proper was all but neglected. Hopefully that will change.
I don't like casinos either, and Vegas holds no interest for me. But more to the point, I have observed that when older Midwestern and Northeastern cities introduce casinos, it's usually a desperate attempt to revive a local economy that's in its death throes. I do not consider the sprouting up of casinos a good sign.
Cleveland is more like the friend's house that was remodeled in just a room or two, maybe got half remodeled in another two rooms but then the remodeling was halted, and the rest of the house was left to fall into ruin.
Don't take this the wrong way what I'm about to ask. Why did y'all move up here then? Y'all knew that Cleveland wasn't Chicago, Seattle or Boston/New England area especially you since you grew up here. All I hear from you is that I don't like Cleveland because it's not Chicago. "Chicago has great neighborhoods, Cleveland doesn't", "Chicago doesn't deserve the reputation for being called the murder capital of the world, Cleveland does because since Cleveland is the whipping boy for everything", "Chicago is more sophisticated than Cleveland", "Cleveland needs more hipsters, Clevelanders are too ghetto and trashy." A lot of y'all say people in cities like Cleveland are close-minded it seems that people come from the Coasts or major cities are even more close-minded than the "small city" or "small town" people they talk about.
If you're that spoiled, why did y'all move here?
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