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Of course most U.S. urban centers have ne'er-do-wells lolling about. But in the more vibrant city centers, such people are outnumbered. In downtown Cleveland -- in particular Public Square in front of Tower City -- this is not the case.
Shortly after moving back, I did Asiatown on foot... and still perceived it as semi-blighted. Despite what gems it might contain here and there, it is not an area that knocks one off one's feet.
As for the "process of rebirth", most major cities already went through that decades ago, and moved on. In that same time, Cleveland has seemed stalled and behind the times. Hopefully it will someday catch up, however.
Traveling down Detroit Avenue, I see a few blocks of "Wow" at Gordon Square, and still the same ugly dreck in either direction outside that area, punctuated almost imperceptibly by a few interesting places here and there. (Of course, I've been spoiled by having had the privilege to live in Chicago's mid-North Side for 20 years.)
IIRC, october2007 is 60. I myself am 56. Perhaps we don't feel we have "two decades" to wait for a city to finally become what it ought to be.
Again, cities like Chicago and Seattle already went through that process decades ago. The fact that Cleveland is still -- in fits and starts, no less -- going through that process feels like a big comedown to us.
When I was in Chicago, I saw gritty, rough neighborhoods transform virtually overnight. Contrast this to Cleveland, where a neighborhood like Ohio City began gentrifying as far back as the late 1960s and still isn't finished today.
There's wealth in Cleveland. It's just that too much of it has been concentrated in the suburbs all these years, while the city proper was all but neglected. Hopefully that will change.
I don't like casinos either, and Vegas holds no interest for me. But more to the point, I have observed that when older Midwestern and Northeastern cities introduce casinos, it's usually a desperate attempt to revive a local economy that's in its death throes. I do not consider the sprouting up of casinos a good sign.
Cleveland is more like the friend's house that was remodeled in just a room or two, maybe got half remodeled in another two rooms but then the remodeling was halted, and the rest of the house was left to fall into ruin.
Not too many cities were devastated like cleveland, detroit Pittsburgh, etc beginning in the 60's to present. Certainly not seatle.
But Cleveland is making strides, huge strides, especially over the past 5 yrs. !
Man if you think Cleveland looks rough now you should have seen it in the 70's.!
Not too many cities were devastated like cleveland, detroit Pittsburgh, etc beginning in the 60's to present. Certainly not seatle.
But Cleveland is making strides, huge strides, especially over the past 5 yrs. !
Man if you think Cleveland looks rough now you should have seen it in the 70's.!
I knew nothing about Cleveland before moving here sight unseen. I think it's been difficult to make sense of the place - at first not sure if it was headed up or down. I haven't meant to be insulting in what now seems like a case of hitting someone when they're down or starting to get back on their feet. From the perspective of Clevelanders who have seen worse times things probably seem, and are, much better. For someone like me who has never been in the rust belt and is used to a different environment it has at times and in places, seemed lacking and even depressing. Glad things are getting better.
I knew nothing about Cleveland before moving here sight unseen. I think it's been difficult to make sense of the place - at first not sure if it was headed up or down. I haven't meant to be insulting in what now seems like a case of hitting someone when they're down or starting to get back on their feet. From the perspective of Clevelanders who have seen worse times things probably seem, and are, much better. For someone like me who has never been in the rust belt and is used to a different environment it has at times and in places, seemed lacking and even depressing. Glad things are getting better.
Please stop using the term Rust Belt because that's the Coasts and liberal elitists way of saying unhip, dumb, slow-witted, unsophisticated, poor, etc.
I knew nothing about Cleveland before moving here sight unseen. I think it's been difficult to make sense of the place - at first not sure if it was headed up or down. I haven't meant to be insulting in what now seems like a case of hitting someone when they're down or starting to get back on their feet. From the perspective of Clevelanders who have seen worse times things probably seem, and are, much better. For someone like me who has never been in the rust belt and is used to a different environment it has at times and in places, seemed lacking and even depressing. Glad things are getting better.
Yes i can attest Cleveland is getting better especially last 5 yrs . its actually never been better in my life! Im 54 .
Cleveland is its own animal. There's really no other city like it in my opinion. All the devastation and abandoned buildings and factories will never totally go away. But what amazes me are neighborhoods like Ohio city ,Tremont the westshoreway areas (among others) are building like crazy when they were ghetto when I was young. In my opinion Cleveland is the spot to be for young people. It's easy to invest, and there are jobs if you have a skill or you are educated
. There used to be a saying in Cleveland in the seventies you've got to be tough to live here. It is a shot and beer city, but now you also have excellent craft beers, micro brewers and $2500 tequila shots on E4th.st.! I think the dirt and rust along with the new and shiny makes this a very interesting City. New cities like Austin, Columbus, Charlotte it is not.
Please stop using the term Rust Belt because that's the Coasts and liberal elitists way of saying unhip, dumb, slow-witted, unsophisticated, poor, etc.
Ok - I only meant refer to this part of the country and meant nothing derogatory.
Yes i can attest Cleveland is getting better especially last 5 yrs . its actually never been better in my life! Im 54 .
Cleveland is its own animal. There's really no other city like it in my opinion. All the devastation and abandoned buildings and factories will never totally go away. But what amazes me are neighborhoods like Ohio city ,Tremont the westshoreway areas (among others) are building like crazy when they were ghetto when I was young. In my opinion Cleveland is the spot to be for young people. It's easy to invest, and there are jobs if you have a skill or you are educated
. There used to be a saying in Cleveland in the seventies you've got to be tough to live here. It is a shot and beer city, but now you also have excellent craft beers, micro brewers and $2500 tequila shots on E4th.st.! I think the dirt and rust along with the new and shiny makes this a very interesting City. New cities like Austin, Columbus, Charlotte it is not.
Maybe more needs to be done to attract or keep young people here after they graduate if they are here for school. I could imagine young people enjoying it here especially as it is more affordable than some over-hyped places.
Of course most U.S. urban centers have ne'er-do-wells lolling about. But in the more vibrant city centers, such people are outnumbered. In downtown Cleveland -- in particular Public Square in front of Tower City -- this is not the case.
Again, you're treating your opinion as a fact. Your description of Public Square is not anything that I've particularly noticed (it's NOT the "Walking Dead" of "ne'er-do-wells," and it's certainly NOT true during commuting and lunch hours on weekdays or during events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
Shortly after moving back, I did Asiatown on foot... and still perceived it as semi-blighted. Despite what gems it might contain here and there, it is not an area that knocks one off one's feet.
You're definition of blighted and mine are very different. Asiatown is a functioning community with many restaurants. I certainly wouldn't call the Asia Plaza blighted. I'm not certain that there are any vacancies there. Koko Bakery reportedly is the only Chinese bakery between NYC and Chicago. I dine in Asiatown perhaps a dozen times a year, and while it's not upscale, it doesn't meet my definition of blighted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
As for the "process of rebirth", most major cities already went through that decades ago, and moved on. In that same time, Cleveland has seemed stalled and behind the times. Hopefully it will someday catch up, however.
Cleveland, like Detroit, was one of the nation's great manufacturing centers. Admittedly, its economy was obliterated by poor federal policies. I've said that many times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
Yet downtown Cleveland's recovery began in the 1980s and accelerated in the 1990s. One benefit of this late contraction was that much of Cleveland's great buildings of the late 19th and 20th century survived intact, somewhat unique in the U.S.
Traveling down Detroit Avenue, I see a few blocks of "Wow" at Gordon Square, and still the same ugly dreck in either direction outside that area, punctuated almost imperceptibly by a few interesting places here and there. (Of course, I've been spoiled by having had the privilege to live in Chicago's mid-North Side for 20 years.)
Heck, I'm not certain that I see any "Wow" factor at Gordon Square. It's not University Circle, Playhouse Square, Gateway, North Harbor, the East Flats, or even the Warehouse District. It has a gritty tenacity that I personally love in Cleveland, and see it in more places along Detroit Ave. than just Gordon Square.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
IIRC, october2007 is 60. I myself am 56. Perhaps we don't feel we have "two decades" to wait for a city to finally become what it ought to be.
I'm older than both of you. I've witnessed both the decline and the immense rebirth of downtown Cleveland in my lifetime. So what???
How presumptuous of anybody to believe that any city's economic cycle should revolve around your wishes. I agree, if it's not to your liking, find another place. Gentrification isn't only for the young, but it's certainly for the young of mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
Again, cities like Chicago and Seattle already went through that process decades ago. The fact that Cleveland is still -- in fits and starts, no less -- going through that process feels like a big comedown to us.
See my previous two paragraphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
When I was in Chicago, I saw gritty, rough neighborhoods transform virtually overnight. Contrast this to Cleveland, where a neighborhood like Ohio City began gentrifying as far back as the late 1960s and still isn't finished today.
First of all, I don't know what you saw in Chicago, but if you're correct, consider the much higher density in Chicago. Prices in Ohio City admittedly are still a fraction of those in German Village in Columbus. Yet in many ways, such as amenities (West Side Market) and mass transit connections, Ohio City has much to offer over German Village. Ohio City may represent an immense bargain, which explains the more recent resurgence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
There's wealth in Cleveland. It's just that too much of it has been concentrated in the suburbs all these years, while the city proper was all but neglected. Hopefully that will change.
Why should it change? The housing stock is great in several Cleveland suburbs as are the amenities. Why should persons living in Chagrin Falls, Hunting Valley, Rocky River, Richfield, Kirtland Hills, etc. want to live in any downtown area, especially if they value the proximity to great natural areas or the likes of the Hunt Club?
However, some wealthy singles and empty nesters are choosing to live in upscale housing in Cleveland, such as at The Nine or the One University Circle now under construction. That says something about the quality of life in Cleveland today. These are significant steps above the Chesterfield, that once was the most upscale residential building downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
Cleveland is more like the friend's house that was remodeled in just a room or two, maybe got half remodeled in another two rooms but then the remodeling was halted, and the rest of the house was left to fall into ruin.
Baloney IMO. Again, what other cities of Cleveland's size have a PlayhouseSquare or a University Circle and a downtown pro sports mecca?
What I perceive are two individuals who wish they were still in Seattle or Chicago. That does not give you any free pass to belittle Cleveland.
Maybe more needs to be done to attract or keep young people here after they graduate if they are here for school. I could imagine young people enjoying it here especially as it is more affordable than some over-hyped places.
You're preaching as if you have some special expertise. You don't. You apparently haven't even read the many posts available on this topic in the Cleveland forum. Here's an example of the articles available.
Yes i can attest Cleveland is getting better especially last 5 yrs . its actually never been better in my life! Im 54 .
Cleveland is its own animal. There's really no other city like it in my opinion. All the devastation and abandoned buildings and factories will never totally go away. But what amazes me are neighborhoods like Ohio city ,Tremont the westshoreway areas (among others) are building like crazy when they were ghetto when I was young. In my opinion Cleveland is the spot to be for young people. It's easy to invest, and there are jobs if you have a skill or you are educated
. There used to be a saying in Cleveland in the seventies you've got to be tough to live here. It is a shot and beer city, but now you also have excellent craft beers, micro brewers and $2500 tequila shots on E4th.st.! I think the dirt and rust along with the new and shiny makes this a very interesting City. New cities like Austin, Columbus, Charlotte it is not.
Reading your post, I have to admit that I really loved that tough old Cleveland.
I saw impromptu drag race events in the West Flats right out of Hollywood.
I had my favorite upper deck box seats on third base at old Muny Stadium, halfway between an ancient bathroom and a beer stand. I remember 80,000 persons for opening day.
I remember climbing a bridge with holes in it above the open hearth furnaces.
And yet there were some great places that don't have their equal in Cleveland today, such as Top-of-the-Town, with Happy Hours at its bar that would put us at eye level with the blimps circling Muny Stadium. The elegance of the Cleveland Athletic Club.
And for those who worry about a bastion of wealth being absent from Cleveland, the Union Club has never left, and is the equal of any of the great clubs that I've seen in NYC. Admittedly, the vast majority of Clevelanders have not entered its doors.
The old watering holes of the East Flats, with its dirt parking lots, and many thousands partying on its docks. I still remember the shock on out-of-towner faces when searchlights from shore would play over the giant lake freighters winding their way up the Cuyahoga, dwarfing the partiers, and adding their great horns to the rock frenzy.
Again, you're treating your opinion as a fact. Your description of Public Square is not anything that I've particularly noticed (it's NOT the "Walking Dead" of "ne'er-do-wells," and it's certainly NOT true during commuting and lunch hours on weekdays or during events.
You're definition of blighted and mine are very different. Asiatown is a functioning community with many restaurants. I certainly wouldn't call the Asia Plaza blighted. I'm not certain that there are any vacancies there. Koko Bakery reportedly is the only Chinese bakery between NYC and Chicago. I dine in Asiatown perhaps a dozen times a year, and while it's not upscale, it doesn't meet my definition of blighted.
Cleveland, like Detroit, was one of the nation's great manufacturing centers. Admittedly, its economy was obliterated by poor federal policies. I've said that many times.
Heck, I'm not certain that I see any "Wow" factor at Gordon Square. It's not Playhouse Square, Gateway, the East Flats, or even the Warehouse District. It has a gritty tenacity that I personally love in Cleveland, and see it in more places along Detroit Ave. than just Gordon Square.
I'm older than both of you. I've witnessed both the decline and the immense rebirth of downtown Cleveland in my lifetime. So what???
How presumptuous of anybody to believe that any city's economic cycle should revolve around your wishes. I agree, if it's not to your liking, find another place. Gentrification isn't only for the young, but it's certainly for the young of mind.
See my previous two paragraphs.
First of all, I don't know what you saw in Chicago, but if you're correct, consider the much higher density in Chicago. Prices in Ohio City admittedly are still a fraction of those in German Village in Columbus. Yet in many ways, such as amenities (West Side Market) and mass transit connections, Ohio City has much to offer over German Village. Ohio City may represent an immense bargain, which explains the more recent resurgence.
Why should it change? The housing stock is great in several Cleveland suburbs as are the amenities. Why should persons living in Chagrin Falls, Hunting Valley, Rocky River, Richfield, Kirtland Hills, etc. want to live in any downtown area, especially if they value the proximity to great natural areas or the likes of the Hunt Club?
However, some wealthy singles and empty nesters are choosing to live in upscale housing in Cleveland, such as at The Nine or the One University Circle now under construction. That says something about the quality of life in Cleveland today. These are significant steps above the Chesterfield, that once was the most upscale residential building downtown.
Baloney IMO. Again, what other cities of Cleveland's size have a PlayhouseSquare or a University Circle and a downtown pro sports mecca?
What I perceive are two individuals who wish they were still in Seattle or Chicago. That does not give you any free pass to belittle Cleveland.
If I wanted to still live in Seattle I would. I don't. You must not have lived anywhere else if you can't understand enjoying aspects of other cities more than some things here.
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