Rant: Cleveland Isn't Suppose to Have Nice Things? (Lakewood, Delaware: real estate, 2013)

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by gouldnm

As a person who is originally from the Midwest and has spent extensive time on both coasts, I’m always amazed at the defensiveness of people from Cleveland. Those of us who have actually lived on the coasts (Minervah, I’m looking at you!) know that every place has its pros and cons. There are things I like better about Cleveland and there are things I like better about the cities on the coasts. That being said, I plan to retire in Cleveland with no regrets.

However, I am really getting tired of the defensiveness and the way people on this forum keep comparing themselves to the coasts. Cleveland has its own unique charms, and you should be thankful that the city hasn’t been discovered yet. If it was, it would just become overcrowded and unpleasant like so many of the cities on the coasts.

I'm working on it...well, trying to work on it. I think we Clevelanders are so defensive because we feel we have to be. For years, the media, comedians, people from the coasts has crapped on Cleveland at every opportunity. At least, the coasts have the media to back them up; Cleveland doesn't, Cleveland has no allies whatsoever. When the coasts has great things happen to their cities, everybody praises it as the greatest thing ever. Cleveland has something great happen to them: "It's still Cleveland." They make sure they go out of their way to say Cleveland is in "The Rust Belt", I hate that term.

We feel like we've been kicked down for so long; you become angry and tired of it, so we now feel that we have to fight and push back. You get tired of folks telling you that you don't deserve nice things. It's not that people from Cleveland compare themselves to anybody on the Coasts. It's more of people from Cleveland are tired of the coasts' snobbery. They think any city that isn't Chicago is the wastelands. I'm sure you received some of that when you lived on the coasts and they found out you were from the Midwest. Us stop being defensive isn't going to change overnight but we're getting there.

[TBideon]

I think you overestimate how much people in the coasts care about Cleveland these days. I mean, do you really think people in New York or San Diego are spending their time mocking or disparaging Cleveland outside of the Browns? If anything, Baltimore, St Louis and Chicago have received far more negative attention in recent years. There is nothing to fight or push back against except for Clevelander's often self-hating mentalities.

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by TBideon

I think you overestimate how much people in the coasts care about Cleveland these days. I mean, do you really think people in New York or San Diego are spending their time mocking or disparaging Cleveland outside of the Browns? If anything, Baltimore, St Louis and Chicago have received far more negative attention in recent years. There is nothing to fight or push back against except for Clevelander's often self-hating mentalities.

New York sometimes does mock or disparage Cleveland but not San Diego. Chicago has received negative attention over the years because the media trying to connect the crime and Obama together. But, they're still looked upon favorably in spite of the crime. Baltimore got negative attention for Freddie Gray and the riots, but I never heard anything negative about St. Louis in recent years. I agree that Clevelanders have to push back against their own self-hate. In your opinion, why do so many Clevelanders have self-hating attitudes?

[TBideon]

Well, there is a whole host of reasons why regional Clevelanders, ex-pats and current residents alike, put down the city often. In terms of the damage from deindustrialization, Cleveland proper dropped from being an economic giant, a peer city to the New York's, Boston's, Chicago's, Philadelphia's, to one where 40 percent of its residents are impoverished, from the 5th biggest city in the Union to the 50th. That kind of drop does immense, generational damage to morale. It's traumatizing, and those who suffer from it or see it daily lash out naturally.


Another reason why there is so much self-hate is the blight that has utterly decimated the vast majority of the east side has bled into the east side suburbs now, which in turn maintains the narrative that Cleveland is a bad city and region. While Warrensville Heights and East Cleveland have been dead for years, in the last twenty Euclid, Maple Heights, Garfield Heights and Bedford Heights have fallen very hard, in particular their schools and property values. Much of Richmond Heights and Cleveland Heights too. Poverty is not something abstract and exists only within city limits but instead has permeated so many of the suburbs that Clevelanders, who grew up in those then better functioning communities, naturally have visceral reactions.


Finally, Cleveland has lost so much in the last twenty years that it's heartbreaking for millennials in particular, the ones we need to return after college or graduate school. Severance Mall, Randall Mall, Euclid Mall, Richmond Mall - gone or virtually gone. Geauga Late and Sea World - gone. The Flats - dead, and as nice as its partial rebirth is, it doesn't hold a candle to the scene of the late 70s-late 90s. Shaker Heights, Euclid, and Garfield Heights fireworks - dead. Coventry Arts Fair - dead. Tower City - essentially dead. 185th Fair - dead(?). It just seems the city has lost far more than its gained - and I'm not even talking about blue and white collar professional jobs that have seen mammoth drops - and that all builds a negative narrative by those who lived through it.

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by TBideon

Well, there is a whole host of reasons why regional Clevelanders, ex-pats and current residents alike, put down the city often. In terms of the damage from deindustrialization, Cleveland proper dropped from being an economic giant, a peer city to the New York's, Boston's, Chicago's, Philadelphia's, to one where 40 percent of its residents are impoverished, from the 5th biggest city in the Union to the 50th. That kind of drop does immense, generational damage to morale. It's traumatizing, and those who suffer from it or see it daily lash out naturally.


Another reason why there is so much self-hate is the blight that has utterly decimated the vast majority of the east side has bled into the east side suburbs now, which in turn maintains the narrative that Cleveland is a bad city and region. While Warrensville Heights and East Cleveland have been dead for years, in the last twenty Euclid, Maple Heights, Garfield Heights and Bedford Heights have fallen very hard, in particular their schools and property values. Much of Richmond Heights and Cleveland Heights too. Poverty is not something abstract and exists only within city limits but instead has permeated so many of the suburbs that Clevelanders, who grew up in those then better functioning communities, naturally have visceral reactions.


Finally, Cleveland has lost so much in the last twenty years that it's heartbreaking for millennials in particular, the ones we need to return after college or graduate school. Severance Mall, Randall Mall, Euclid Mall, Richmond Mall - gone or virtually gone. Geauga Late and Sea World - gone. The Flats - dead, and as nice as its partial rebirth is, it doesn't hold a candle to the scene of the late 70s-late 90s. Shaker Heights, Euclid, and Garfield Heights fireworks - dead. Coventry Arts Fair - dead. Tower City - essentially dead. 185th Fair - dead(?). It just seems the city has lost far more than its gained - and I'm not even talking about blue and white collar professional jobs that have seen mammoth drops - and that all builds a negative narrative by those who lived through it.

Pretty good points. I also think that the rep Cleveland gets nationally plays into it as well, in my opinion. In another post, you said that Chicago, Baltimore and St. Louis have received negative press in recent years more than Cleveland. I never seen those cities receive that kind of press. Chicago is still a tourist attraction and "King of the Midwest" to most people, Baltimore still gets somewhat of a pass because it's close to D.C. and St. Louis

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by QCongress83216

Pretty good points. I also think that the rep Cleveland gets nationally plays into it as well, in my opinion. In another post, you said that Chicago, Baltimore and St. Louis have received negative press in recent years more than Cleveland. I never seen those cities receive that kind of press. Chicago is still a tourist attraction, Baltimore still gets somewhat of a pass because it's close to D.C. and St. Louis

Baltimore and St Louis have had race riots on the news. Huge negative press. Worse than anything Cleveland has had.

[TBideon]

It seems like Baltimore has been all over the news stemming from the protests and riots, all things negative. There has been this consistent ugly tone with the city name since 2015; beforehand, the only things I associated with Baltimore was Hopkins, row houses, the Inner Harbor, Charles Street and the Wire. Not anymore. For example, I haven't a clue who the mayor of Seattle or Portland is, but I do know of Dixon and Rawlings and their corruptions/tone deaf behavior. Terrible leadership is more memorable to outsiders like me than positive. Baltimore homicides are also all over the news far more than they probably should.


As for St Louis, it is like they only make national news due to Ferguson-related riots, police acquittals, etc. For three or four years, it seems there are multiple annual riots involving death, trauma, property damage, etc, and no positive stories.


There is just a certain stigma with those two cities that I find stronger than Cleveland.

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Baltimore and St Louis have had race riots on the news. Huge negative press. Worse than anything Cleveland has had.

In your opinion, did the Tamir Rice shooting and the Cleveland Police having to agree to a Consent Decree give Cleveland negative press?

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by TBideon

It seems like Baltimore has been all over the news stemming from the protests and riots, all things negative. There has been this consistent ugly tone with the city name since 2015; beforehand, the only things I associated with Baltimore was Hopkins, row houses, the Inner Harbor, Charles Street and the Wire. Not anymore. For example, I haven't a clue who the mayor of Seattle or Portland is, but I do know of Dixon and Rawlings and their corruptions/tone deaf behavior. Terrible leadership is more memorable to outsiders like me than positive. Baltimore homicides are also all over the news far more than they probably should.


As for St Louis, it is like they only make national news due to Ferguson-related riots, police acquittals, etc. For three or four years, it seems there are multiple annual riots involving death, trauma, property damage, etc, and no positive stories.


There is just a certain stigma with those two cities that I find stronger than Cleveland.

OK that's your opinion. You also said Chicago has been getting negative press too, but that negative press hasn't affected the city's perception. They're still considered one of the biggest tourist attractions and "King of the Midwest" to most people. On the flip side, within the last two years Cleveland has had the Cavs win the NBA Championship and hosted the RNC, and some people still have that attitude, "It's still Cleveland" even in your current city.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by QCongress83216

In your opinion, did the Tamir Rice shooting and the Cleveland Police having to agree to a Consent Decree give Cleveland negative press?

No race riot. This cannot be glazed over. Look at the videos from St Louis and Baltimore. Throw in Milwaukee. It's scary. Cleveland? They marched down the street a couple times. Peaceful. Tamir Rice was the afterthought incident compared to all other examples of police brutality.

In my opinion it's not even remotely close.