Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well I learned that the inferiority complex was more about Ohio, than any one city, like Cleveland. My other inferiority was all about Akron. Cleveland was actually a city I looked up to. No matter how bad it gets in Cleveland I think it can always look at Akron for affirmation.
I've also learned in my limited travels that a lot of what people had to say was actually right. But I just did not want to believe it because I did not like the way that it made me feel. And then there is plenty that people talk about that is just wrong.
Cleveland was once 914,000. That is more than a lot of people can say about their cities. As far as city proper, that is technically still more than Columbus.
Just keep in mind that Cleveland still has great neighborhoods and still has an interesting downtown.
Go out and see other cities. Live in other cities to see what else is out there. Then go back to Cleveland. You'll realize that a lot of what you took for granted in Cleveland does not exist in other cities. And you'll see that you may not have it as bad as you think you do.
What did you have an inferiority complex about Akron and Ohio in general? Elaborate on what people was right about.
What did you have an inferiority complex about Akron and Ohio in general? Elaborate on what people was right about.
My inferiority complex about Akron is that it was not Cleveland. Simple as that. Cleveland had a huge downtown, about what you would expect if you left Downtown Akron and went North all the way to Cuyahoga Falls. And I wanted that in Akron and hated that I could not get it.
My inferiority complex about Ohio is that it did not have the large cities you find in other cities. There is no Chicago or Detroit in Ohio. No NYC, no LA.
So this is the closure. As far as Akron even though it feels smaller, technically, it isn't that much different in size from Cleveland. Akron is 62 square miles. Cleveland is 82 square miles. So a lot of it is perspective. I have to come to enjoy Akron and its hills. Especially after visiting cities like Pittsburgh and DC, which also has some interesting hills, though not the same extent as Akron, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh.
So while you may not have the West and East sides in Akron to the extent that you have them in Cleveland there is no North or South in Cleveland (in the same way that it is in Akron, well technically the North is Lake Erie) so if you add up two sides of a town in Akron you get one side in Cleveland. Sort of. And yes there is little, if anything in Downtown Akron but that is okay.
I also hated having to go to Cleveland for everything. Cleveland has the television stations. Cleveland has the radio stations. Now that I'm older and I have worked in communications I understand that better but I hated it growing up. Plus we have the internet; I don't even watch television or listen to the radio anymore after eight hours of that for a paycheck why bother. Although I am addicted to streaming and I waste a lot of time on YouTube.
I moved to an area that is several cities and feels a lot like Columbus. It has the population of metro Columbus. So I finally got to experience what I wanted to experience with metro Cleveland. And I'm really over it.
For one it takes forever to get anywhere. Bridges and tunnels, and highways and expressways and peninsulas and rivers and streams. I have the Atlantic Ocean but it doesn't feel any different than Lake Erie. I have the cultural melting pot you get in Cleveland. And I have the South, for what that is worth, which for the most part is slower and kinder but that slowness and that kindness can be disingenuous at times. Back in Ohio people cut to the chase and they don't play a lot of games with you; they're blunt, but they're fair. It isn't always like that down here.
And it honestly does not feel like anything. Cleveland gives you the feel of a larger city, it gives you that grit it really does not feel like that here it is more of a dirty South, metro Atlanta type of feel (even though I'm in Virginia).
What people were right about. Ohio is not all that to them. Clearly, nothing in Ohio is going to compare to Brooklyn or Queens, and nothing is Manhattan. At the same time nothing is DC and its overpriced suburban communities, which are technically smaller cities. Driving around Columbus expressway sort of compares to driving around DC, maybe not as intense but definitely as long. And we don't have high rise housing projects and we don't have narrow bridges a mile high telling you which borough to go to if you follow this fork in the highway. It is what it is. But I sort of like what Ohio offers in that respect; enough without being overwhelming. Interesting without making you feel small and denigrating you for not having grown up there. Plus Ohio is actually a lot cleaner than what they have on the East Coast.
If I ever come back, it would probably be to Columbus or maybe Chicago. I still like a large city. My wife does not particularly care for Cleveland or Akron and she did experience Dayton for several years so it is not like she does not know anything about Ohio. We thought about Columbus and Cincinnati back then but it never panned out. But in retrospect that was a good thing because I think everyone should experience life in a different state, so they can appreciate Ohio in a different way.
My inferiority complex about Akron is that it was not Cleveland. Simple as that. Cleveland had a huge downtown, about what you would expect if you left Downtown Akron and went North all the way to Cuyahoga Falls. And I wanted that in Akron and hated that I could not get it.
My inferiority complex about Ohio is that it did not have the large cities you find in other cities. There is no Chicago or Detroit in Ohio. No NYC, no LA.
So this is the closure. As far as Akron even though it feels smaller, technically, it isn't that much different in size from Cleveland. Akron is 62 square miles. Cleveland is 82 square miles. So a lot of it is perspective. I have to come to enjoy Akron and its hills. Especially after visiting cities like Pittsburgh and DC, which also has some interesting hills, though not the same extent as Akron, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh.
So while you may not have the West and East sides in Akron to the extent that you have them in Cleveland there is no North or South in Cleveland (in the same way that it is in Akron, well technically the North is Lake Erie) so if you add up two sides of a town in Akron you get one side in Cleveland. Sort of. And yes there is little, if anything in Downtown Akron but that is okay.
I also hated having to go to Cleveland for everything. Cleveland has the television stations. Cleveland has the radio stations. Now that I'm older and I have worked in communications I understand that better but I hated it growing up. Plus we have the internet; I don't even watch television or listen to the radio anymore after eight hours of that for a paycheck why bother. Although I am addicted to streaming and I waste a lot of time on YouTube.
I moved to an area that is several cities and feels a lot like Columbus. It has the population of metro Columbus. So I finally got to experience what I wanted to experience with metro Cleveland. And I'm really over it.
For one it takes forever to get anywhere. Bridges and tunnels, and highways and expressways and peninsulas and rivers and streams. I have the Atlantic Ocean but it doesn't feel any different than Lake Erie. I have the cultural melting pot you get in Cleveland. And I have the South, for what that is worth, which for the most part is slower and kinder but that slowness and that kindness can be disingenuous at times. Back in Ohio people cut to the chase and they don't play a lot of games with you; they're blunt, but they're fair. It isn't always like that down here.
And it honestly does not feel like anything. Cleveland gives you the feel of a larger city, it gives you that grit it really does not feel like that here it is more of a dirty South, metro Atlanta type of feel (even though I'm in Virginia).
What people were right about. Ohio is not all that to them. Clearly, nothing in Ohio is going to compare to Brooklyn or Queens, and nothing is Manhattan. At the same time nothing is DC and its overpriced suburban communities, which are technically smaller cities. Driving around Columbus expressway sort of compares to driving around DC, maybe not as intense but definitely as long. And we don't have high rise housing projects and we don't have narrow bridges a mile high telling you which borough to go to if you follow this fork in the highway. It is what it is. But I sort of like what Ohio offers in that respect; enough without being overwhelming. Interesting without making you feel small and denigrating you for not having grown up there. Plus Ohio is actually a lot cleaner than what they have on the East Coast.
If I ever come back, it would probably be to Columbus or maybe Chicago. I still like a large city. My wife does not particularly care for Cleveland or Akron and she did experience Dayton for several years so it is not like she does not know anything about Ohio. We thought about Columbus and Cincinnati back then but it never panned out. But in retrospect that was a good thing because I think everyone should experience life in a different state, so they can appreciate Ohio in a different way.
This is a very well written and thoughtful post. It occurred to me while reading it that maybe one big problem the OP is having with his Cleveland inferiority complex is that he wants Cleveland to be something it is not. You accepted Akron for what it was when you were able to understand why it was the way it was.
I couldn’t agree more with you that he needs to move somewhere else not only to be able make comparisons on lifestyles but also to be able to understand why the things that work in some places will not necessarily work in others.
This is a very well written and thoughtful post. It occurred to me while reading it that maybe one big problem the OP is having with his Cleveland inferiority complex is that he wants Cleveland to be something it is not. You accepted Akron for what it was when you were able to understand why it was the way it was.
I couldn’t agree more with you that he needs to move somewhere else not only to be able make comparisons on lifestyles but also to be able to understand why the things that work in some places will not necessarily work in others.
I'm envious of the infrastructure that Cleveland has, what they've salvaged. Not so much for Akron but for here. They want the abandoned factories so they can convert them to lofts, they want the rail that Cleveland has, they want the strong ethnic communities and the infrastructure that goes along to support those communities here. The food is not that good here. Our rail is a joke. And what few abandoned factories did exist were in such bad shape they needed to be torn down.
Richmond has that infrastructure and they're already doing what Cleveland has done on a different scale but Hampton Roads bought into urban renewal, and they tore down their existing stock back in the seventies. So we're just getting glass and steel now, sort of how it is up in New York.
A lot of what they take for granted in Cleveland they don't know what they have. It is not like Detroit; yet. They need to get ahead of the situation and grab what Detroit would otherwise get, thanks to Dan Gilbert and company. I'm not sure if they have the level of investment that Detroit has. Akron gets the scraps as always but again I understand why that is now.
All Cleveland really needs to do is invest heavily into the East side, like there is no tomorrow, and rebuild all of that old stock that has seen better days. Cleveland should be what DC is now. It won't happen without jobs of course, but I envision a city far better than what it is now and a lot closer to what it was at its peak. It will be interesting to see what the next 20 or 30 years brings. Then we'll hear about gentrification, Blacks leaving Cleveland blah blah blah but at least the city will be a desirable destination instead. Pittsburgh has experienced the same struggles. That city is turning around and has a long way to go but it is definitely better than it was back in the eighties.
The thing about Pittsburgh though is that it continues to lose population. Pittsburgh remains the only metro losing population due, in part, to natural decline. The city itself is still losing population; it's down to about 303,000. This is known as more deaths than births; this is known as an old population base and, in Pittsburgh's case, it's the ''oldest'' metro in the country. The Pittsburgh metro still exports lots of people, and again, due to having such an elderly population, Florida is the big winner here for these ''exports''. Pittsburgh's college education population has, no doubt, grown since 2000, but not as significantly as one would think given the great press Pittsburgh gets for being a boom-town. I like Pittsburgh so this isn't a slam on the city/metro, just the facts in the context of the discussion going on here.
Chicago is another example of a city attracting educated residents to high paying jobs clustered in the downtown and north side areas. The rest of the city is in decline, the middle class is leaving, especially poor minorities. Now the Chicago metro is losing population. While some downplay the ''poor leaving'' as an issue, the larger problem for Chicago and Illinois is the burden of carrying the city and state is growing for these high-paid, educated residents. Chicago's real estate market appreciation is stagnant and it still has a huge amount of underwater mortgages. I believe Cleveland is seeing higher valuation appreciation than Chicago at this point.
As you point out, Cleveland has started its reinvention in places like downtown, Tremont etc. The momentum of these areas should continue; as it does, the areas attach to new ''hot'' areas etc. It's a nice start, but at least it's a start. I mean there has to be a ''start'' somewhere. The broader discussion of what continues to ail Cleveland needs to realistically be addressed and discussed. Touchy topics would need to be discussed though.
So while old Rust Belt cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are oftentimes hailed as being these boom towns, while Cleveland and Detroit, for example, are still considered laggards, all have one thing in common: city and metro populations in decline.
Yup, 100% agree across the board. A lot of these demographic problems are only going to get worse too. I would actually argue that becoming a "boom town" in the modern era... the risks far outweigh the net positives. I mean, contrasted to the boom eras of the industrial and consumer ages that gave rise to rust-belt cities and their established middle-classes -- and all the resultant carnage of its fall we've seen the past (?) 3 or 4 decades -- these new "boom towns" and their mega-disparities in top 10% and bottom 90% of wealth are especially dangerous.
The acceleration of AI/Machine Learning/Automation across sectors, the continued contraction and consolidation of global and national economies, aging populations in almost every developed nation, the rise of India and China's massive middle-classes, climate change, etc, etc. At some point, I see most of these newer "boom towns" in the US flip rather violently. Signs are already there.
So again, slow and steady. I would, however, like to see a much deeper and expansive conversation happening around here about our future. Leaving it to city hall and a few billionaires to figure out is a horrible idea.
Yup, 100% agree across the board. A lot of these demographic problems are only going to get worse too. I would actually argue that becoming a "boom town" in the modern era... the risks far outweigh the net positives. I mean, contrasted to the boom eras of the industrial and consumer ages that gave rise to rust-belt cities and their established middle-classes -- and all the resultant carnage of its fall we've seen the past (?) 3 or 4 decades -- these new "boom towns" and their mega-disparities in top 10% and bottom 90% of wealth are especially dangerous.
The acceleration of AI/Machine Learning/Automation across sectors, the continued contraction and consolidation of global and national economies, aging populations in almost every developed nation, the rise of India and China's massive middle-classes, climate change, etc, etc. At some point, I see most of these newer "boom towns" in the US flip rather violently. Signs are already there.
So again, slow and steady. I would, however, like to see a much deeper and expansive conversation happening around here about our future. Leaving it to city hall and a few billionaires to figure out is a horrible idea.
As what I believe is first hand witness to what you are describing I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. To me it isn’t progress when people are forced out of homes and then cities to make way for “the new waves.” Trust me when I say the homeless in those places do not all consist of deadbeats, druggies or those who refuse to work. In fact, many have jobs and are quite decent people priced out of the housing market.
I can understand someone feeling that Cleveland may not be up to it’s full potential. Hopefully that will come with careful planning. But there is absolutely no reason to feel “inferior” to any other city I can think of because it has not yet achieved all it can.
As what I believe is first hand witness to what you are describing I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. To me it isn’t progress when people are forced out of homes and then cities to make way for “the new waves.” Trust me when I say the homeless in those places do not all consist of deadbeats, druggies or those who refuse to work. In fact, many have jobs and are quite decent people priced out of the housing market.
I have a cousin who lives in San Francisco. She and her husband both have phDs and well-paying jobs in research. Yet they are very concerned about being able to afford their own home.
My sister is a doctor in a suburb of Chicago, and she complains about the high cost of living all the time.
What is so great about living in a city where even two phDs or a doctor can't afford a place to live!
On a side note, I was recently reading an article about how the best and the brightest are no longer going into science and engineering. Everybody wants to go into finance. If we're not careful, we will lose our technical edge. We can't keep counting on immigrants to fill the gaps forever.
I have a cousin who lives in San Francisco. She and her husband both have phDs and well-paying jobs in research. Yet they are very concerned about being able to afford their own home.
My sister is a doctor in a suburb of Chicago, and she complains about the high cost of living all the time.
What is so great about living in a city where even two phDs or a doctor can't afford a place to live!
On a side note, I was recently reading an article about how the best and the brightest are no longer going into science and engineering. Everybody wants to go into finance. If we're not careful, we will lose our technical edge. We can't keep counting on immigrants to fill the gaps forever.
Well we went from the FIRE (finance, insurance, real estate) economy in the '90s-'00s, then the depression hit, shifted to STEM (scient, technology, mathematics) economy, and now we're seeing the real estate boom again.
So Finance increasing makes sense; consider though the subprime lending, no money down or minimal equity, government ''grants'', seller concessions (selling price higher with the difference being given to buyer as ''closing cost credit'', 100% financing are all back as well, and will lead to another banking induced depression. The cycle continues...not sure if we'll make it through the next finance collapse given the toll the last has taken on the middle class.
Cleveland should see some job growth as a result of renewed interest and growth in finance generally.
If I were getting into a finance career today, I would make sure I have a plan B in place though.
I have a cousin who lives in San Francisco. She and her husband both have phDs and well-paying jobs in research. Yet they are very concerned about being able to afford their own home.
My sister is a doctor in a suburb of Chicago, and she complains about the high cost of living all the time.
What is so great about living in a city where even two phDs or a doctor can't afford a place to live!
On a side note, I was recently reading an article about how the best and the brightest are no longer going into science and engineering. Everybody wants to go into finance. If we're not careful, we will lose our technical edge. We can't keep counting on immigrants to fill the gaps forever.
I have a lady friend who lives in San Diego and she pays high rent. I joked with her and said that would property taxes for a few houses in Cleveland lol. IMO, some people want to live in those high cost cities for various reasons i.e. weather, jobs, beaches, glamour, nightlife, social status or just to say they live there to be the envy of their family and friends.
Last edited by QCongress83216; 04-16-2018 at 02:59 PM..
The mistake most places make is putting their eggs in one industry basket thinking those eggs will last forever.
When Portland lost the logging industry it was a pretty depressed, nothing much town. Lots of character but little else. The shipping industry was holding it together. Then almost overnight it became a tech town. That’s what made it what it is today. Kind of the same with Seattle although being a larger city, Seattle was always in better shape and more importantly more industrially diversified.
So now, if the tech industry wanes or moves where does Portland go? They have tried to attract a more diversified business base but have never succeeded very well. Time after time they have lost bids on large companies that would bring a number of jobs to the area. They just don’t seem to have the ability to succeed in negotiating deals.
The Rust Belt cities depended upon their steel mills, automobile factories and manufacturing facilities for decades. No one ever thought it would be any other way. But it happened.
So now those cities trying to build themselves up again can look to other successful cities not only to see what they have done to get there but what they haven’t done. Those that have continued to put all their eggs in one basket are asking for failure again somewhere down the line. We should neither envy nor emulate them. Instead we should try to diversify our industries so that we are not dependent on just one in the event that one may someday disappear as inevitably seems to happen.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
