RTA: What's good, bad, and improvable (Cleveland, Akron: apartment complexes, houses, community college)

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Mixed-use can be TOD. The going to little Italy, playhouse square, and other destinations on the rapid equate to occasional use. Don’t know how many people use the rapid to tower city, walk out to public square, and transfer to the Euclid Avenue bus to playhouse square to catch Hamilton. Not to say it doesn’t or can’t happen but RTA still needs to bring back lots of dIly commuters and the buses are most likely to see the ridership boost more than the rapid.

Actually me and my friend did just that, and on an August Sunday matinee, at that. Our "Hamilton" performance began at 1p, but there was an Indians game and other downtown activities whereby those parking lot robber barons jacked up their rates -- not to mention, we were amazed/surprised just how huge (and drop-dead gorgeous) the State Theatre is (compared to what I'm used to in Philly) -- I hadn't been to a PHS play in over a decade. Anyway the trip was a snap -- got off the Rapid and hopped a C-Line Trolley bus (or could have waited for the Health Line) which was about a 10-minute jaunt (wrapping around E. 9th, Prospect, E. 17th and back down Euclid) dropping us off at the door 1-hour before curtain call (we had will-call tics). The streets were so busy there were CPD traffic cops before and after the play.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by j_ws

I would think a useful threshold would be to see a sustained increase in ridership during non-peak hours as that indicates people are using the system in a manner that's central to their lives beyond just commuting.

Absolutely... Our Rapid system is historically a commuter rail line -- the 100-year-old Shaker Line was built to take suburbanites quickly its off-street Terminal Tower terminal... While, it's true, the bread-'n-butter of most rapid rail systems is downtown-based commuter traffic, most successful rapid transit systems offer more 'incidental' trips, like the Boston "T", Washington's Metro and Chicago's L...

In these last few years, the RTA Rapid is moving toward this. At the 3 biggie stops -- Ohio City, Little Italy/UC and Shaker Square -- I'm seeing more and more casual riders (lots of OC visitors coming from farther west meaning they don't even get as far as downtown at all) and, apparently, Red Line Ohio-City-to-Little Italy (and vice versa) runs have become the thing for some... Stations stops at Van Aken (the new Van Aken District just now coming online) and Birdtown (W. 117) and even FEB on the Watefront Line stand to get more of these types of trips -- as does Tower City, itself, for all the restaurant and leisure activities growing in/around TC -- what about a quick Rapid trip to Public Square to lounge at the fountains -- ditto to E. 9th to do the same, at the rapidly (no pun) developing North Coast Harbor? TOD can only further this.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by j_ws

The Red Line is generally pretty busy during regular commuting times. I haven't utilized the other lines to commute so I won't comment on those, but I've definitely encountered the Red Line cars having standing room only, even before the reduction of some trains to a single car.

I would think a useful threshold would be to see a sustained increase in ridership during non-peak hours as that indicates people are using the system in a manner that's central to their lives beyond just commuting.

Hmm...”generally pretty busy” makes it sound as being not busy, especially if the “train” is a single car. Then again I remember the 5-car blue “cattle cars” RTA would bring out for rush hours into the early’80s or the later 3-car trains with the “airporters” and the current trains still in use.

I’ve only been on some recent westbound evening rush hour trains out of tower city and noticed how many people are not waiting for trains anymore at 5:15 pm or so on a weekday. Even on an afternoon inbound red line, the waiting passengers heading east is not a crush of people at all.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Hmm...”generally pretty busy” makes it sound as being not busy, especially if the “train” is a single car. Then again I remember the 5-car blue “cattle cars” RTA would bring out for rush hours into the early’80s or the later 3-car trains with the “airporters” and the current trains still in use.

I’ve only been on some recent westbound evening rush hour trains out of tower city and noticed how many people are not waiting for trains anymore at 5:15 pm or so on a weekday. Even on an afternoon inbound red line, the waiting passengers heading east is not a crush of people at all.

I remember packed rush hour trains of 6 old blue cars.. and 3-car "Airporters" which were gigantic.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Absolutely... Our Rapid system is historically a commuter rail line -- the 100-year-old Shaker Line was built to take suburbanites quickly its off-street Terminal Tower terminal... While, it's true, the bread-'n-butter of most rapid rail systems is downtown-based commuter traffic, most successful rapid transit systems offer more 'incidental' trips, like the Boston "T", Washington's Metro and Chicago's L...

In these last few years, the RTA Rapid is moving toward this. At the 3 biggie stops -- Ohio City, Little Italy/UC and Shaker Square -- I'm seeing more and more casual riders (lots of OC visitors coming from farther west meaning they don't even get as far as downtown at all) and, apparently, Red Line Ohio-City-to-Little Italy (and vice versa) runs have become the thing for some... Stations stops at Van Aken (the new Van Aken District just now coming online) and Birdtown (W. 117) and even FEB on the Watefront Line stand to get more of these types of trips -- as does Tower City, itself, for all the restaurant and leisure activities growing in/around TC -- what about a quick Rapid trip to Public Square to lounge at the fountains -- ditto to E. 9th to do the same, at the rapidly (no pun) developing North Coast Harbor? TOD can only further this.

For sure the TOD Cleveland is seeing will increase some incidental riders, which it should anyways, but RTA can’t rely on a couple taking a fluke trip from Centric to Tower City to romp in the splash pool on public square. This is a very limited pool of riders as anyone not living on or really close to a rapid station isn’t going to do this.

It seems that Clevelanders’ transit thinking has gone from progressive to building a bar hopping train line and wanting an extension of the red line to Euclid; see also Cincinnati’s streetcar line where the only thing progressive is the mounting debt, headaches, and non-use. Cities are spending lots of $ for these “fun” rides to transport bar and restaurant hopping, not commuters.

The frustrating thing about Cleveland’s bar hopping rail line is that it’s an extension of a decent rail network yet it’s terminal is a city owned lakefront parking lot. Then again the RTA is a corrupt, graft ridden, and “who do you, not what you know” organization swimming in the Cuyahoga County cesspool.

Transit ridership is down in most u.s. cities despite the billions of $ invested in commuter, heavy, light, streetcar, and BRT. Many non-transit legacy cities, with regional sprawl and the ease of driving and inexpensive parking, there is a real challenge to get people on transit. In Cleveland’s case, it’s getting people back on transit.

Btw, haven’t been on the healthline in a while, what is the current fare checking system?

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by TheProf

I remember packed rush hour trains of 6 old blue cars.. and 3-car "Airporters" which were gigantic.

Maybe those old blue car trains were 6 car trains; they were long trains is what I remember.

Last spring I was at Hilton 32 floor with some DC friends. The WFL was pointed out as it moved east from the port curve, all of 1 car in length.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Actually me and my friend did just that, and on an August Sunday matinee, at that. Our "Hamilton" performance began at 1p, but there was an Indians game and other downtown activities whereby those parking lot robber barons jacked up their rates -- not to mention, we were amazed/surprised just how huge (and drop-dead gorgeous) the State Theatre is (compared to what I'm used to in Philly) -- I hadn't been to a PHS play in over a decade. Anyway the trip was a snap -- got off the Rapid and hopped a C-Line Trolley bus (or could have waited for the Health Line) which was about a 10-minute jaunt (wrapping around E. 9th, Prospect, E. 17th and back down Euclid) dropping us off at the door 1-hour before curtain call (we had will-call tics). The streets were so busy there were CPD traffic cops before and after the play.

Like I stated, not to say it can’t or doesn’t happen but you’re a transit person generally and not the rule in doing this. Trust me, I wish everyone did this.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Then again the RTA is a corrupt, graft ridden, and “who do you, not what you know” organization swimming in the Cuyahoga County cesspool.

Transit ridership is down in most u.s. cities despite the billions of $ invested in commuter, heavy, light, streetcar, and BRT. Many non-transit legacy cities, with regional sprawl and the ease of driving and inexpensive parking, there is a real challenge to get people on transit. In Cleveland’s case, it’s getting people back on transit.

Btw, haven’t been on the healthline in a while, what is the current fare checking system?

Can't argue with the top statement... As for HL fare paying, you must swipe your farecard up front ... like the olden days...

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Can't argue with the top statement... As for HL fare paying, you must swipe your farecard up front ... like the olden days...

That’s what I thought about the HL. Second to the dedicated lanes with median platforms, the whole concept of ease of access by entering all doors was the 2nd best feature of the HL. It really was like a light-rail train. There’s no way Cleveland’s BRT is the best in the U.S. anymore, simply due to this feature not being used. What a shame.

RTA needs to return to all door access and do periodic general fare checks with RTA police. Only problem is the RTA would be forced to challenge the Cleveland muni judge ruling this procedure unconstitutional. Even though this ruling would not withstand a challenge, there’s no way RTA will take it on.

[QCongress83216]

I always wondered why the Rapid and buses don't extend to suburbs like Medina and Mentor. That would boost ridership for people in those 'burbs who don't want to pay for parking going Downtown and those who live in the city.