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I was focusing on what's good for RTA at this point... Of course any migration of jobs out of downtown or Cleveland, generally, is bad for the city. But at least, in this case, Cleveland Clinic has a campus within walking distance of a rail station which is good for workers, esp those without cars. This situation, unfortunately, is very rare for suburban employment in Greater Cleveland.
What's the ridership payoff of Clinic workers using the closest rapid station to its campus? Until that area cleans-up, the payoff won't be there. Get workers that have cars to use the red line.
I mean that in the early 1980s Cleveland had a downtown workforce population in the mid 300,000s and today it's a bit under 100,000. White collar business has been decimated; just look at the E9/Euclid financial district today versus prior generations. These aren't nominal changes, resulting in dramatically fewer people needing to go downtown by car or public transportation.
And I agree the state doesn't seem to give a s-hit about RTA either. Their funding is abysmal, political.
Cleveland's downtown workforce was in the 350,000 range in the early 1980s? Hmm.
As I said, regular weekday ridership numbers are small. But I also noted, there are promising developments planned that can boost these numbers (notably FEB Phase III)... but the summer festivals, Flat Out Fridays, concerts and events in the Flats and at North Coast Harbor (Tall Ships Festival is another), prove the WFL is popular with a number of suburban visitors...
It would be nice if corporations or entities would provide bennies for the WFL -- the Trolleys are free because they are underwritten by downtown corps (and yes, I agree the trolleys are much better overall downtown circulators than the WFL)... But I do remember, in the 1990s when the WFL was brand new, and the old Flats was still hot, you paid $1 to ride on the Holy Moses Water Taxi by flashing a WFL pass... revelers were heavily using summer weekend WFL trains, to the extent 2-car trains were used and RTA (under more progressive leadership) ran summer weekend trains until 2:00/2:15a... If it worked then, why can't it work now? The WFL gets no current support and much of this ignoring came form the regressive RTA administration that left office last Sept, thankfully. Hopefully things will change at some point.
Yes, where are the millennials and their alleged demand for transit when it comes to the WFL?
The '90s were a long time ago and the flats crows has changed as well. Also, the WFL can't survive on summer weekend bar hoppers. It didn't last long the first time around.
Yes, where are the millennials and their alleged demand for transit when it comes to the WFL?
The '90s were a long time ago and the flats crows has changed as well. Also, the WFL can't survive on summer weekend bar hoppers. It didn't last long the first time around.
No, I don't think the WFL will survive on bar-hoppers either. However I also don't think eliminating WFL service from the nighttime, weekend bar scene makes sense either... WFL ridership to the Flats disappeared in proportion to the Flats dying in the early 2000s. While the Flats East Bank weekend crowd is different and maybe not quite as robust nowadays as it was in the late 1990s when the WFL was new, it has comeback pretty strong... Unfortunately the last RTA GM was no friend of rail and killed off service while encouraging corporate-backed trolleys to serve the Flats at night.
I like the Trolleys but, as I noted before, they serve a different crowd than the WFL. Trolleys mainly circulate around downtown, which is great if you're living downtown and maybe want to bar hop. If you want to go to Tower City/the Casino or even E. 4th from the Flats, I don't see why the WFL couldn't work for that. Also, as in the late 1990s, many East Siders parked at Shaker lots and rode WFL trains directly in-out of the Flats. And many West Siders rode Red Line trains in and transferred to the WFL at Tower City...
... Back then WFL trains (alternating Blue and Green Lines) ran every 15 minutes. You can't tell me this wouldn't work today because it's never been tried. RTA's been on this WFL train every 30 minutes and/or no evening/late night service since the mid-2000s which corresponds to the time the Flats essentially died the first time.
Yes, where are the millennials and their alleged demand for transit when it comes to the WFL?
The demographic needs somewhere to go on transit. There isn't an overwhelming generational demand to just ride trains for the sake of it.
The WFL has inconvenient hours (stops running by 7PM). That isn't realistic for any type of entertainment/bar hopping crowd. The line itself is set up to be accessible primarily during work hours, but the majority of the line doesn't actually go near where people live or work. If it was a complete loop and shot down E18 to Euclid or Prospect then that would probably be a different story.
Being squarely in the middle of the "millennial" generation, I feel like I have a pretty decent grasp on what's going on with my peers. Where I live there is certainly a much higher than average number of 25-35 year olds. I see how we've changed over the years. As one example, virtually everyone I know as they approach or go over age 30 now owns an automobile. This includes me, even though I do not commute with it. However, I also do not commute via public transit. I walk. I walk despite a bus covering the exact same route. I just have determined that it's not worth the smells, the crowding, the inconsistency, and the snail pace (I'd say about 25% of the time my walk is faster than the bus anyway). People not using buses or trains isn't necessarily bad, especially if they are actually living in those dense urban areas. If I lived in Ohio City and worked downtown for example, I would never take the rapid or a bus.
Even though I grew up near the Green Line in University Heights and used it frequently to go to work downtown in the middle of the day, it probably does make sense to be honest about the commuter train it is. It's too bad that it goes down Shaker Blvd through those mansions, serving virtually nobody between 9 and 5.
At such a low frequency, the Waterfront Line is useless. Most days of the year, the only stops that are of interest are Settlers Landing and the East Bank. But if you're already downtown, why would you take the WFL two stops? The station in tower city takes 5 minutes to get to by itself. Then you might have to wait 10 or 15 minutes after that (on a good day). Why would you not just walk? It's not an unpleasant walk either (this is a good thing, people choosing walking over transit, imo).
I really don't understand the focus on bar hopping entertainment crowds. I don't have a point aside from that really. Just that entertainment areas are a result of other successes in a city, not the cause. I personally rarely frequent downtown bars in any city. I find all these areas to be pretty similar after a while. It's also not a bad thing to stay in your neighborhood because you have fun things to do there. No need to leave.
I'm definitely not anti-transit at all, it's just that in some ways, the RTA won't see the benefit of an infill of citizens in core areas, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the city. However, the RTA really still does need to increase frequency to get the people who don't live right in the core. People over there need to wake up now. Regardless of state funding, the mismanagement has really hurt the agency. Are we really sure that additional funding wouldn't just be wasted anyway? I don't think it's too late though.
I'm definitely not anti-transit at all, it's just that in some ways, the RTA won't see the benefit of an infill of citizens in core areas, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the city. However, the RTA really still does need to increase frequency to get the people who don't live right in the core. People over there need to wake up now. Regardless of state funding, the mismanagement has really hurt the agency. Are we really sure that additional funding wouldn't just be wasted anyway? I don't think it's too late though.
I'm a pretty big fan of most components of the "high frequency" example proposal. The only features I think it should retain or incorporate are:
- Maintain a bus route in Berea. I know people use the Red Line and 86 bus to get between Cleveland and Baldwin-Wallace.
- Maintain one line to Crocker Park. Again, I know people actually do rely on the 25 for this reason.
- Maintain the Park-and-Ride locations
- Use this redesign to add a regular stop at Edgewater Park. That's a huge missed opportunity.
- The 55/Cleveland State Line needs to remain a regular service and not just operate during rush hour. Without that line, the entire neighborhood of Edgewater would be without any transit access. The Red Line isn't that easily accessible from the neighborhood because the stations are only accessible from Detroit Ave and the Norfolk Southern tracks prevent there from being easy connectivity between Edgewater and Detroit Ave.
Being squarely in the middle of the "millennial" generation, I feel like I have a pretty decent grasp on what's going on with my peers. Where I live there is certainly a much higher than average number of 25-35 year olds. I see how we've changed over the years. As one example, virtually everyone I know as they approach or go over age 30 now owns an automobile. This includes me, even though I do not commute with it. However, I also do not commute via public transit. I walk. I walk despite a bus covering the exact same route. I just have determined that it's not worth the smells, the crowding, the inconsistency, and the snail pace (I'd say about 25% of the time my walk is faster than the bus anyway). People not using buses or trains isn't necessarily bad, especially if they are actually living in those dense urban areas. If I lived in Ohio City and worked downtown for example, I would never take the rapid or a bus.
Even though I grew up near the Green Line in University Heights and used it frequently to go to work downtown in the middle of the day, it probably does make sense to be honest about the commuter train it is. It's too bad that it goes down Shaker Blvd through those mansions, serving virtually nobody between 9 and 5.
At such a low frequency, the Waterfront Line is useless. Most days of the year, the only stops that are of interest are Settlers Landing and the East Bank. But if you're already downtown, why would you take the WFL two stops? The station in tower city takes 5 minutes to get to by itself. Then you might have to wait 10 or 15 minutes after that (on a good day). Why would you not just walk? It's not an unpleasant walk either (this is a good thing, people choosing walking over transit, imo).
I really don't understand the focus on bar hopping entertainment crowds. I don't have a point aside from that really. Just that entertainment areas are a result of other successes in a city, not the cause. I personally rarely frequent downtown bars in any city. I find all these areas to be pretty similar after a while. It's also not a bad thing to stay in your neighborhood because you have fun things to do there. No need to leave.
I'm definitely not anti-transit at all, it's just that in some ways, the RTA won't see the benefit of an infill of citizens in core areas, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the city. However, the RTA really still does need to increase frequency to get the people who don't live right in the core. People over there need to wake up now. Regardless of state funding, the mismanagement has really hurt the agency. Are we really sure that additional funding wouldn't just be wasted anyway? I don't think it's too late though.
I'm beyond the millennial generation, but have relatives who are and I observe their habits...
Yes, relying on strictly bar-hopping is one thing, but the Flats is/is aiming for more than that. There are restaurants and a hotel, too. Many folks just like being near the water on a warm evening where boat-watching can be as interesting (if not more) than people watching along the boardwalk ... and I see nothing wrong with that. In other cities like Boston and Baltimore, there are similar areas that attract such crowds (esp Boston's aquarium area). People in downtown Boston don't seem to have a problem transferring to, or going down to catch Blue Line trains to that station, even though T subway stations are considerably older and dingy-er than Tower City. However I recognize that someone at PHS would be better served by hopping a trolley rather than the Rapid... However, I see no reason why someone at 4th Street or closer to TC, couldn't hop a WFL train IF they are running every 15 minutes, which they were at nights in the late 1990s when the Flats were new and really hot....
This frequency also worked for Red Liners from the West Side as well as passengers from the Heights/Eastern suburbs area who parked at Blue/Green Line stations ... or simply walked to Shaker Square. Obviously this latter audience has/had a direct shot to the Flats using this route.
Also Phase 3 of the Flats East Bank should breaking ground by year's end which will not only increase and diversify Flats options (including a high-grade, independent movie theater), but will also completely eliminate the large surface lot between FEB Phases 1 and 2, which will force many people to either fight more and pay more to park, ride RTA or simply go elsewhere.
People for years clamored for a rail extension to the crowded Flats. Now just 22 years after its initial success and decline (commensurate with the sharp decline in the Flats), people look at the WFL like its a waste of time even though Flats crowds have largely returned... But the past RTA administration did all it could to kill interest in the WFL... reduced or eliminated service to special events; killed off all night New Year's Eve service (which was a public service to keep drinkers off the road); reduced daytime service to every half hour, eliminating night time service and, for a time, eliminating daytime service completely from 2010 to 2013 (when FEB Phase 1 opened). These tactics are a sure-fire way to turn riders away from trains and create an atmosphere, like we have now, where people question the line's existence entirely.
It seems people in Cleveland often find reasons NOT to ride the Rapid rather than the opposite in other cities (not pointing the finger at you, though)...
btw BJimmy, while many folks think the trains were mainly used by revelers, I found a lot of restaurant, workers, barkeeps and other retail employees were reliant on the WFL. I remember some of these workers cursing RTA when they cut back the evening service.
... and also we've allowed our pols to enact policies and agendas that were/are harmful to the WFL ... and the Rapid in general.
Again, we was the rebuilt/expanded Convention Center built with no connection to the WFL even though CC windows overlook the WFL/Amtrak station?
Why aren't City officials pushing for the multi-modal transportation station at E. 9th Street rather than merely focusing on a footbridge over the tracks.
Why did they allow corporate-funded downtown trolleys to totally supplant WFL service even though the trolleys often get stuck in FEB traffic, aren't convenient for getting from Tower City/E. 4th Street to the Flats (you have to ride all the way around the Loop past PHS then down St. Clair into the Flats)... Also the trolleys stop at 11p where, even on an average night, WFL trains ended at 12:15p... (and 2:15p on summer Weekend nights).
I'm beyond the millennial generation, but have relatives who are and I observe their habits...
Yes, relying on strictly bar-hopping is one thing, but the Flats is/is aiming for more than that. There are restaurants and a hotel, too. Many folks just like being near the water on a warm evening where boat-watching can be as interesting (if not more) than people watching along the boardwalk ... and I see nothing wrong with that. In other cities like Boston and Baltimore, there are similar areas that attract such crowds (esp Boston's aquarium area). People in downtown Boston don't seem to have a problem transferring to, or going down to catch Blue Line trains to that station, even though T subway stations are considerably older and dingy-er than Tower City. However I recognize that someone at PHS would be better served by hopping a trolley rather than the Rapid... However, I see no reason why someone at 4th Street or closer to TC, couldn't hop a WFL train IF they are running every 15 minutes, which they were at nights in the late 1990s when the Flats were new and really hot....
This frequency also worked for Red Liners from the West Side as well as passengers from the Heights/Eastern suburbs area who parked at Blue/Green Line stations ... or simply walked to Shaker Square. Obviously this latter audience has/had a direct shot to the Flats using this route.
Also Phase 3 of the Flats East Bank should breaking ground by year's end which will not only increase and diversify Flats options (including a high-grade, independent movie theater), but will also completely eliminate the large surface lot between FEB Phases 1 and 2, which will force many people to either fight more and pay more to park, ride RTA or simply go elsewhere.
People for years clamored for a rail extension to the crowded Flats. Now just 22 years after its initial success and decline (commensurate with the sharp decline in the Flats), people look at the WFL like its a waste of time even though Flats crowds have largely returned... But the past RTA administration did all it could to kill interest in the WFL... reduced or eliminated service to special events; killed off all night New Year's Eve service (which was a public service to keep drinkers off the road); reduced daytime service to every half hour, eliminating night time service and, for a time, eliminating daytime service completely from 2010 to 2013 (when FEB Phase 1 opened). These tactics are a sure-fire way to turn riders away from trains and create an atmosphere, like we have now, where people question the line's existence entirely.
It seems people in Cleveland often find reasons NOT to ride the Rapid rather than the opposite in other cities (not pointing the finger at you, though)...
btw BJimmy, while many folks think the trains were mainly used by revelers, I found a lot of restaurant, workers, barkeeps and other retail employees were reliant on the WFL. I remember some of these workers cursing RTA when they cut back the evening service.
Hopefully the Flats will continue to grow and thrive, becoming an all-encompassing urban district. Frequency is definitely for me at least the number 1 issue with the RTA as a system, if I had to choose one. I will certainly agree with the thing about many Clevelanders just not being interested in taking transit at all for whatever reason. I've always enjoyed the rapid. It is honestly much faster, cleaner, more spacious and quieter than the T in Boston. It really isn't close imo. But my friends back in the Heights drive 100% of the time, even for going to games and concerts and stuff like that. I can't say I really get it.
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