Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cleveland
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-11-2018, 12:36 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
Reputation: 7213

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
My argument for running the Waterfront Line frequently and all day is that, even with light traffic, if you kill off any potential by taking the service away. Besides this fact, I find it hard to believe running the extra service hit RTA that hard in the pocketbook. It's a 2.2 mile extension -- very short, and during the day, esp before rush hours, many LRTs are dead-headed over the Red Line's long bridge over the Cuyahoga River which is an additional .5 to .7 miles... When RTA cut WFL service to just weekends back in 2010, the only dollar savings I heard quoted by RTA was about $300K per years -- that's a drop in the bucket for a large, complex transit system which, I'm sure, could find other more redundant services to save -- like the several transit cops who hang around Tower City, RTA's safest station, during slack hours...
This analysis doesn't consider the opportunity cost of operating the WFL. To the extent that Blue/Green line trains provide service on the WFL at least 20 minutes of service on the Blue/Green lines are eliminated. If the WFL trains still go to the Muny parking lot (not clear on schedules), the lost service time may approach 30 minutes.

The resulting reduced frequency on the Blue/Green lines may result in lost ridership, especially to extent that the resulting reduced convenience reduces ridership on the Blue/Green lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
I think the biggest factor in cutting WFL service is psychological -- City and RTA officials saw the empty/near empty trains was embarrassing to locals. And yet I've witnessed and ridden on many empty Trolleys, but no one thinks this is a bad look and, besides, corporations are subsidizing the Trolleys.
Businesses obviously find it profitable to support the trolleys in order to provide free service. And the many times that I've ridden the free trolleys, I've never been the only rider, but I've seen capacity as low as 25 percent on occasion, much greater than when I've been the only rider on the WFL.

Personally, I think it would be a brilliant idea for RTA to offer free service tickets from Playhouse Square to Tower City, perhaps using subsidies from downtown and Warehouse District businesses.

As I've noted in an earlier post, nobody promotes the free bus trolleys very well. My guess is that PlayhouseSquare doesn't want visitors there to know how easy it is to leave the theater district for dinner, such as going to the East Flats on weekends!

Downtown hotels with restaurants also don't want to promote a service that makes its easy for guests to use competing, and often superior restaurants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
You also mention the C-Line as the only line serving FEB. That's true and it comes at an inconvenience. First, when its really crowded on weekends, these bus-trolleys get stuck in traffic unlike WFL trains which run on private right-of-ways and have signal/gate protected street crossings. In addition, while the C-Line takes passengers to the front of Tower City (with a layover before the next trip), they do not directly serve the Flats from Tower City. Passengers must walk 2 blocks north to St. Clair and try and hail a Flats-bound trolley from near the Ontario intersection (one evening we were passed by, by an oblivious trolley driver ... we ended up walking down. Otherwise, if a Rapid passenger disembarking at Tower City doesn't feel like walking, he/she can sit and wait for the next C-Line run heading in the opposite direction, heading out Euclid, to E. 9th, to Prospect, to Playhouse Sq and CSU before looping back along St. Clair ... if you don't mind spending all that time.

Yeah, I know the C-Line circulates through downtown nicely -- I get that. But this serves only the folks already down there -- tourist, downtown workers or the 16K downtown residents. But what about the folks riding in on the Rapid? Wouldn't it be simpler to just stay on the train (in the case of inbound Shaker riders) or a simply level transfer at track level from the Red Line, which is essentially a cross-platform transfer?
I think this is a very unfair, even inaccurate comparison of WFL wait times compared to C-line and other free bus trolleys, and much too quick dismissal of the superior element of convenience of service for the large majority of visitors to the East Flats, and for downtown workers and visitors, especially those not going to just the East Flats.

I don't know how much time congestion actually costs C-line operation. That would be an interesting factoid. Personally, I would be surprised if it were ever more than five minutes given the limited loop of the C-line in the East Flats.

Your analysis makes it sound as if the Tower City Red Line station is more convenient for the large majority of users than the C-line. This is simply grossly inaccurate. Walking to Tower City to catch the WFL is a ridiculous idea for most downtown workers, residents, visitors (not staying at Tower City nor going to the Flats from other locations in downtown, such as from Playhouse Square).

First, the C-line and other downtown trolleys operate on 10-minute intervals, much more frequent than the WFL frequency of service. Unless at the Tower City hub or on a Blue-Green train with continuing WFL service (such as you likely use), it's faster to walk to the Tower City C-line stop to catch a trolley. Riding the entire C-line loop from Tower City to the East Flats is likely about as fast as walking north to catch the C-line on its westbound leg, and certainly more comfortable in muggy weather. You also get a chance to see downtown, and perhaps even stop at attractions such as Heinen's.

For those many downtown residents, workers, tourists, etc., the C-line and other trolleys are much, much more convenient than the WFL for getting to the East Flats (even if a walk is required when the C-line isn't in operation).

And given the frequency of service, and opportunity to get off in the Warehouse District or near Convention Center hotels, the C-line is greatly more preferable for users returning from the East Flats than the WFL.

I use the downtown trolleys frequently and find them a great service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Also you state downtown is low density, but I think this is misleading. With the growing activity level and interest in the Flats, as well as its growth, it is becoming a serious choke point for traffic, given its small area, narrow access roads and the physical isolation being down the steep hills into the Flats. It's no doubt why RTA ran regular buses down there prior to the WFL's construction in 1996. I don't think your idea of "special events" services is logical for such a major rail instillation and running rubber-tired trolleys to compete with it... other cities with thriving waterfronts, like Baltimore, would love a service like WFL so intimately serving the prime destinations... Only in Cleveland would we blow off such a service.
I firmly believe, contrary to many posts on this forum, that downtown Cleveland's density, including downtown workers and visitors, and even considering the ease of walking to destinations (I know many residents and commuters enjoy walking on many days of the ear), does not justify fixed rail service in the downtown area.

As I firmly believe that very economical autonomous vehicle service will provide efficient point-to-point service within 20 years, perhaps even offered as a mass transit service, it makes little sense IMO to invest in fixed rail in downtown Cleveland. As recent experience has proven, the likes of Uber and Lyft have reduced mass transit usage in major cities with relatively excellent fixed rail service such as NYC.

Having recently visited downtown Chicago for several days, I noted with interest that my friends (with higher disposable income) often used Uber or Lyft, even taxi service rather than slower mass transit service which would require longer walks. I personally made it a point to use Chicago's downtown Red Line on several trips, and to compare its rider capacity rates with the Waterfront Line and likely even the Healthline bus rapid is a joke. The walk from the Red Line station to the Chicago Institute of Art required 10 minutes, time saved if I had used Uber!

I see no problem using the WFL only during periods, such as special events or football games, when demand is very high, even if just to supplement bus/trolley service when demand is very high. Admittedly traffic from the Tower City hub would be much higher at these times due to visitors using the rail rapids to get downtown.

I note again that a bus/trolley route would provide much greater convenience, both for East Flats residents and the large majority of workers and visitors than the WFL. E.g., it would be great during the summer season if the bus/trolley route served the U.S.S. Cod.

I personally would prefer an bus/trolley route operating during weekdays including non-rush hours to the WFL. The last time that I took the WFL it was because there was no direct service from Public Square to the East Flats and the Rock Hall during a summer, weekday afternoon. The train was slow, and the time commitment on my part was marginally reasonable, and I still had to walk to the U.S.S. Cod.

My ten cents!

Last edited by WRnative; 08-11-2018 at 12:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-11-2018, 03:54 PM
 
4,490 posts, read 5,043,011 times
Reputation: 4789
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
This analysis doesn't consider the opportunity cost of operating the WFL. To the extent that Blue/Green line trains provide service on the WFL at least 20 minutes of service on the Blue/Green lines are eliminated. If the WFL trains still go to the Muny parking lot (not clear on schedules), the lost service time may approach 30 minutes.

The resulting reduced frequency on the Blue/Green lines may result in lost ridership, especially to extent that the resulting reduced convenience reduces ridership on the Blue/Green lines.
The analysis should be sunk costs as opposed to opportunity costs. The salaries of the drivers Rapid drivers generate considerably more per day/week/month/year costs than running these cars over 2.2 extra miles of track where costs are mainly generated by the negligible extra electricity used. Drivers are paid salaries and work in shifts. Maybe you need one, or at most 2 extra cars to cover the extra service. I can't believe that either by shifting the schedule of a driver here, or paying some overtime, there, the added costs can't be minimized. (btw base service frequency on the Blue & Green Lines has been the same for nearly 2 decades: every 30 minutes to Tower City on each line and every 15 minutes on the bundled/trunk line: every 15 minutes... that doesn't change regardless of whether trains go through to the WFL or not, so the WFL doesn't "hurt" Blue/Green service)...

This is a sunk cost because RTA built it 22 years ago for $70M -- chicken feed by today's standards. Again, $300K per year is not a great cost savings for such a visible and important service.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Businesses obviously find it profitable to support the trolleys in order to provide free service. And the many times that I've ridden the free trolleys, I've never been the only rider, but I've seen capacity as low as 25 percent on occasion, much greater than when I've been the only rider on the WFL.

Personally, I think it would be a brilliant idea for RTA to offer free service tickets from Playhouse Square to Tower City, perhaps using subsidies from downtown and Warehouse District businesses.

As I've noted in an earlier post, nobody promotes the free bus trolleys very well. My guess is that PlayhouseSquare doesn't want visitors there to know how easy it is to leave the theater district for dinner, such as going to the East Flats on weekends!

Downtown hotels with restaurants also don't want to promote a service that makes its easy for guests to use competing, and often superior restaurants.
Downtown businesses, RTA, the GC Downtown Alliance, the GC Alliance, K&D properties, etc., all promote the Trolleys very well and by getting together and paying for them, well... Why doesn't RTA promote the WFL as it did when it first opened (and it was a new toy). If, in your scenario, PHS can promote using the Trolleys to go to the Flats East Bank (FEB), why can't RTA and the City get together and sponsor free daily/weekly/monthly tickets to commuters who park at Muny Lot? I've seen several Public Sq workers reverse-commute to/from Muny Lot anyway... Why not advantage rail transit? Not only do local leaders/groups/business NOT fund the WFL, they don't even promote it in ANY way... other cities have ads promoting rail transit in magazines and NPs and even post little signs on telephone poles, etc stating that a rail station is a block away.

Those first few years after it opened and the Flats was packed on weekends, WFL trains ran 2-car trains into the flats that were well filled, esp at bar closing time on weekends when a more progressively run RTA ran trains till 2a on Friday and Saturday nights from Memorial Day to Labor Day. RTA never really promoted service well to the thousands of office workers in/around E. 9th & Lakeside (ie those at City Hall, North Point, the Federal Building and even Erieview) and, yet, some workers did use it -- many more in the early days when WFL was new. Back in the "olden days" of the "old Flats" (circa 1990s), RTA and the old Holy Moses Water Taxi, which several boats making several stops on both sides of the river, partnered to offer $1 Water Taxi rides with the proof of an RTA pass or ticket ... and many Flats commuters took advantage of it. Again feasibility isn't the issue, it's local priorities and wants. Former FEB co-partner Adam Fishman suggested businesses underwrite WFL services like they do the trolleys... this fell on deaf ears.

Not only do we NOT do this in Cleveland, we promote other aspects like the Trolleys, parking lots or Flats shuttles from bars and restaurants before promoting the Rapid. Even RTA itself, and even for big events (the Taste of Summer, Fireworks, etc) promotes the Trolleys and is silent on the WFL. Does any of this make sense? Would a normal medium-sized city hungry for rail do this? I answer "no" to both.

The WFL was never an all-day packed service, but rose and fell with activity in the Flats. Passenger loads died when FEB died and yet transit hating pundits started a media war against the WFL "Ghost Trains" even though most local leaders and pols were on board with building the WFL when there was congestion in the then growing Flats in the 1980s and early 90s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Your analysis makes it sound as if the Tower City Red Line station is more convenient for the large majority of users than the C-line.
Not true. I don't care about C-Line passengers, per se (see below)... My point is that Tower City absolutely is the most convenient for rail passengers coming in from City neighborhoods and the suburbs (where parking at rail stations is free -- a rarity in America that Clevelanders usually overlook). The fact that I use the Trolleys sometimes -- as a Shaker rail rider -- puts a hole in your argument... WFL detractors make apples-to-oranges comparisons of line-haul rail passengers vs. (already) downtown circulating trolley riders. By killing off the WFL all together, RTA forces either A. downtown rail commuters the inconvenience of a 2-seat, long-walk/transfer ride to/from the Flats (if I choose to go down there after 7p, which is often the case on warm summer weekends), or B. to drive -- which a lot of Flats visitors now do ... which many of them WERE NOT doing during the old Flats/early WFL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Walking to Tower City to catch the WFL is a ridiculous idea for most downtown workers, residents, visitors (not staying at Tower City nor going to the Flats from other locations in downtown, such as from Playhouse Square).
Again you are obfuscating. As I said, I as a rail rider into downtown use the Trolleys and even the HL to travel out Euclid on those rare occasions when I don't feel like walking, esp if I travel as far as CSU. You are overlooking the fact that, aside from downtown visitors, the downtown population had to get there somehow, and most come from the suburbs -- where getting to the Rapid is convenient -- walking or free parking... You are twisting things by saying I'm advocating walking from all over downtown to catch a train into the Flats.... I never said this. But the bulk of locals who are either working in or visiting downtown, who are either from City neighborhoods or the burbs, walk or Trolley to Tower City every day to catch Rapids home (some, more lately, also board the few WFL trains at E. 9th Street or FEB for the through ride to the East Side or the easy transfer to Red Line trains at TC). Take away City and suburban visitors from FEB and FEB dies. They don't just suddenly appear downtown, ready and anxious to ride subsidized trolleys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
I see no problem using the WFL only during periods, such as special events or football games, when demand is very high, even if just to supplement bus/trolley service when demand is very high. Admittedly traffic from the Tower City hub would be much higher at these times due to visitors using the rail rapids to get downtown.

I note again that a bus/trolley route would provide much greater convenience, both for East Flats residents and the large majority of workers and visitors than the WFL. E.g., it would be great during the summer season if the bus/trolley route served the U.S.S. Cod.

I personally would prefer an bus/trolley route operating during weekdays including non-rush hours to the WFL. The last time that I took the WFL it was because there was no direct service from Public Square to the East Flats and the Rock Hall during a summer, weekday afternoon. The train was slow, and the time commitment on my part was marginally reasonable, and I still had to walk to the U.S.S. Cod.

My ten cents!
A sure way to hamper or kill any transit service is to make it part time, confusing the public as to exactly when it's running. RTA has successfully done this with the WFL. They have steered the public away from trains and onto buses/trolleys, either by poor, infrequent WFL service, or no service at all. Suburban downtown visitors likely say: 'to heck with this crap, I'm driving.' (I've actually heard this said numerous times in much more colorful adjectives)

My main point is: why must Cleveland anti-rail folks force an either-or proposition? Why do the Trolleys have to "replace" the Waterfront Line (again, seen as an asset in most cities) rather than compliment it? And again, I stand by my proposition that the WFL has not gotten a fair shot -- people are killing the trains because the Flats died when the fly-by-night warehouse clubs and restaurants closed ... now with the huge resurgence in a new Flats featuring a variety of entertainment and even residents (both hotel and permanent -- and growing!), somehow people are allergic to trains; rail service is not promoted/ignored at the EXPENSE of subsidized trolleys so that, now, anti-rail folks can say: "See, the Rapid is a failure and people prefer Trolleys ... or driving." That's such a Detroit mentality... and btw is similar to how GM and the automakers conspired to kill transit in this country in the 1940s and 50s.

... is Cleveland still living in the 1940s and 50s?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2018, 10:17 PM
 
6,600 posts, read 8,936,736 times
Reputation: 4683
Honestly I think even the branding of it as the "Waterfront Line" is confusing. The first time I rode it I honestly wasn't 100% sure if I would have to transfer from Blue/Green to "Waterfront" somewhere downtown. Maybe "Waterfront Extension" would have been better? Or simply just not branding it separately at all?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2018, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,047 posts, read 12,360,325 times
Reputation: 10375
RTA Audit Shows Major Decrease In Serious Crimes on Buses and Trains Since 2016
https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and...ins-since-2016
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2018, 08:27 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
RTA Audit Shows Major Decrease In Serious Crimes on Buses and Trains Since 2016
https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and...ins-since-2016
There's been a big decrease in ridership. I wonder if the serious crimes/ridership ratio has decreased. Reading the story, it does sound as if the system is safer now.

Most of the article is about fare evasion, however. Fourth amendment rights violation (read the article)? Obviously, RTA decided not to appeal this decision as it would seem ridiculous. Additionally, how is making certain that all riders have paid their fares "inequitable???"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,047 posts, read 12,360,325 times
Reputation: 10375
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
There's been a big decrease in ridership. I wonder if the serious crimes/ridership ratio has decreased. Reading the story, it does sound as if the system is safer now.

Most of the article is about fare evasion, however. Fourth amendment rights violation (read the article)? Obviously, RTA decided not to appeal this decision as it would seem ridiculous. Additionally, how is making certain that all riders have paid their fares "inequitable???"
Yes but not an 95% decrease in ridership.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2018, 02:41 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
The analysis should be sunk costs as opposed to opportunity costs. The salaries of the drivers Rapid drivers generate considerably more per day/week/month/year costs than running these cars over 2.2 extra miles of track where costs are mainly generated by the negligible extra electricity used. Drivers are paid salaries and work in shifts. Maybe you need one, or at most 2 extra cars to cover the extra service. I can't believe that either by shifting the schedule of a driver here, or paying some overtime, there, the added costs can't be minimized. (btw base service frequency on the Blue & Green Lines has been the same for nearly 2 decades: every 30 minutes to Tower City on each line and every 15 minutes on the bundled/trunk line: every 15 minutes... that doesn't change regardless of whether trains go through to the WFL or not, so the WFL doesn't "hurt" Blue/Green service)...

This is a sunk cost because RTA built it 22 years ago for $70M -- chicken feed by today's standards. Again, $300K per year is not a great cost savings for such a visible and important service.
The opportunity cost is, as mentioned in my post 21, perhaps not clearly expressed, is rather than running near empty cars on the WFL during weekdays especially outside of commuting hours, use the labor to increase service on the Blue/Green lines.

Alternatively the labor could be used to run the weekday bus or trolley loop through the East Flats that I've discussed several times. Perhaps trolley routes could simply be altered to provide service to the East Flats and North Coast attractions during weekday hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Downtown businesses, RTA, the GC Downtown Alliance, the GC Alliance, K&D properties, etc., all promote the Trolleys very well and by getting together and paying for them, well... Why doesn't RTA promote the WFL as it did when it first opened (and it was a new toy). If, in your scenario, PHS can promote using the Trolleys to go to the Flats East Bank (FEB), why can't RTA and the City get together and sponsor free daily/weekly/monthly tickets to commuters who park at Muny Lot? I've seen several Public Sq workers reverse-commute to/from Muny Lot anyway... Why not advantage rail transit? Not only do local leaders/groups/business NOT fund the WFL, they don't even promote it in ANY way... other cities have ads promoting rail transit in magazines and NPs and even post little signs on telephone poles, etc stating that a rail station is a block away.

Those first few years after it opened and the Flats was packed on weekends, WFL trains ran 2-car trains into the flats that were well filled, esp at bar closing time on weekends when a more progressively run RTA ran trains till 2a on Friday and Saturday nights from Memorial Day to Labor Day. RTA never really promoted service well to the thousands of office workers in/around E. 9th & Lakeside (ie those at City Hall, North Point, the Federal Building and even Erieview) and, yet, some workers did use it -- many more in the early days when WFL was new. Back in the "olden days" of the "old Flats" (circa 1990s), RTA and the old Holy Moses Water Taxi, which several boats making several stops on both sides of the river, partnered to offer $1 Water Taxi rides with the proof of an RTA pass or ticket ... and many Flats commuters took advantage of it. Again feasibility isn't the issue, it's local priorities and wants. Former FEB co-partner Adam Fishman suggested businesses underwrite WFL services like they do the trolleys... this fell on deaf ears.
Playhouse Square does not promote the free bus trolleys, likely because it has a very vested interested in keeping its 1 million plus annual visitors inside the theater district.

As I've said repeatedly, many downtown hotels and/or offices (such as the new county administration building) aren't convenient for the WFL stations. These could be better served by a trolley. From many locations now, it would be more convenient to take the E-Line or B-line trolleys to near the East Flats and walk up and down the hill, than to use either the Tower City or East Ninth WFL stations.

I could see why the WFL should offer later hours on Friday and Saturday night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Again you are obfuscating. As I said, I as a rail rider into downtown use the Trolleys and even the HL to travel out Euclid on those rare occasions when I don't feel like walking, esp if I travel as far as CSU. You are overlooking the fact that, aside from downtown visitors, the downtown population had to get there somehow, and most come from the suburbs -- where getting to the Rapid is convenient -- walking or free parking... You are twisting things by saying I'm advocating walking from all over downtown to catch a train into the Flats.... I never said this. But the bulk of locals who are either working in or visiting downtown, who are either from City neighborhoods or the burbs, walk or Trolley to Tower City every day to catch Rapids home (some, more lately, also board the few WFL trains at E. 9th Street or FEB for the through ride to the East Side or the easy transfer to Red Line trains at TC). Take away City and suburban visitors from FEB and FEB dies. They don't just suddenly appear downtown, ready and anxious to ride subsidized trolleys...
Actually, I think you're ridiculously obfuscating, so we may have to agree to disagree.

1) Many downtown residents don't live conveniently near Tower City compared to trolley stops. East Flats residents likely find it faster in many cases to walk to a trolley stop than to use the WFL for their downtown commutes, even when no trolley goes through the East Flats in the morning.

2) Downtown visitors often don't stay in hotels convenient to Tower City or East 9th station compared to the trolley stops.

3) Likely the majority of downtown workers still drive (just guessing; if you can provide a definitive link, that would be interesting). From many downtown office buildings/parking garages, trolley stops are more convenient than WFL stations.

4) Again, I suspect a large number of the visitors to PlayhouseSquare drive there. The C-line is much faster and convenient for going between PlayhouseSquare and the East Flats than the WFL stations, and the frequency is higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
A sure way to hamper or kill any transit service is to make it part time, confusing the public as to exactly when it's running. RTA has successfully done this with the WFL. They have steered the public away from trains and onto buses/trolleys, either by poor, infrequent WFL service, or no service at all. Suburban downtown visitors likely say: 'to heck with this crap, I'm driving.' (I've actually heard this said numerous times in much more colorful adjectives)
Running WFL lines during weekdays with little or no traffic makes just no sense IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
My main point is: why must Cleveland anti-rail folks force an either-or proposition? Why do the Trolleys have to "replace" the Waterfront Line (again, seen as an asset in most cities) rather than compliment it? And again, I stand by my proposition that the WFL has not gotten a fair shot -- people are killing the trains because the Flats died when the fly-by-night warehouse clubs and restaurants closed ... now with the huge resurgence in a new Flats featuring a variety of entertainment and even residents (both hotel and permanent -- and growing!), somehow people are allergic to trains; rail service is not promoted/ignored at the EXPENSE of subsidized trolleys so that, now, anti-rail folks can say: "See, the Rapid is a failure and people prefer Trolleys ... or driving." That's such a Detroit mentality... and btw is similar to how GM and the automakers conspired to kill transit in this country in the 1940s and 50s.
I'm not anti-rail, I just recognize the reality that in the absence of sufficient densities/attractions, buses/trolleys are more efficient and provide better rider satisfaction than fixed rail routes because trolleys and buses have flexible routes which can maximize service and satisfaction. I have no preference, unlike you, over riding a rail rapid or bus trolley around downtown. I want the fastest service.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2018, 06:07 PM
 
4,490 posts, read 5,043,011 times
Reputation: 4789
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
The opportunity cost is, as mentioned in my post 21, perhaps not clearly expressed, is rather than running near empty cars on the WFL during weekdays especially outside of commuting hours, use the labor to increase service on the Blue/Green lines.

Alternatively the labor could be used to run the weekday bus or trolley loop through the East Flats that I've discussed several times. Perhaps trolley routes could simply be altered to provide service to the East Flats and North Coast attractions during weekday hours.



Playhouse Square does not promote the free bus trolleys, likely because it has a very vested interested in keeping its 1 million plus annual visitors inside the theater district.

As I've said repeatedly, many downtown hotels and/or offices (such as the new county administration building) aren't convenient for the WFL stations. These could be better served by a trolley. From many locations now, it would be more convenient to take the E-Line or B-line trolleys to near the East Flats and walk up and down the hill, than to use either the Tower City or East Ninth WFL stations.

I could see why the WFL should offer later hours on Friday and Saturday night.



Actually, I think you're ridiculously obfuscating, so we may have to agree to disagree.

1) Many downtown residents don't live conveniently near Tower City compared to trolley stops. East Flats residents likely find it faster in many cases to walk to a trolley stop than to use the WFL for their downtown commutes, even when no trolley goes through the East Flats in the morning.

2) Downtown visitors often don't stay in hotels convenient to Tower City or East 9th station compared to the trolley stops.

3) Likely the majority of downtown workers still drive (just guessing; if you can provide a definitive link, that would be interesting). From many downtown office buildings/parking garages, trolley stops are more convenient than WFL stations.

4) Again, I suspect a large number of the visitors to PlayhouseSquare drive there. The C-line is much faster and convenient for going between PlayhouseSquare and the East Flats than the WFL stations, and the frequency is higher.



Running WFL lines during weekdays with little or no traffic makes just no sense IMO.



I'm not anti-rail, I just recognize the reality that in the absence of sufficient densities/attractions, buses/trolleys are more efficient and provide better rider satisfaction than fixed rail routes because trolleys and buses have flexible routes which can maximize service and satisfaction. I have no preference, unlike you, over riding a rail rapid or bus trolley around downtown. I want the fastest service.
There are a major points which you refuse to address:

- Most people who access downtown don't live there, so talk of convenience of the Trolley to move around is irrelevant for those who need to get there -- from the suburbs/city neighborhood, where the WFL and Tower City are important and the WFL is more convenient to the Flats for them. (also inbound No. 39 buses get off the Shoreway and have a stop right at the WFL station at E. 9th. Why not integrate the services?)

- Why are there no promotional to support the WFL, like free tickets if you park at Muny Lot? Why aren't local leaders pumping the WFL like they are the Trolleys, which are subsidized?

- Why can't the 2 services compliment each other; why must it be an either/or, zero sum game for rail?

- I'm a rail rider who uses the Trolleys and the HL, but you somehow won't recognize that.

- There are, indeed, empty Trolley runs -- several; whether you want to recognize this or not. And when there is a special event and crowds at FEB, WFL trains outdraw C-Line Trolleys (although, once again, they tend to serve different audiences; just that suburbanites turn to the trains)

- Phase 3 of FEB will eat up parking, generate more traffic and make the WFL more attractive ... or would you continue to favor your beloved trolleys and "special event" the WFL?

- Your reaction to rail transit goes straight to "things Clevelanders take for granted" thread.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2018, 07:34 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
There are a major points which you refuse to address:

- Most people who access downtown don't live there, so talk of convenience of the Trolley to move around is irrelevant for those who need to get there -- from the suburbs/city neighborhood, where the WFL and Tower City are important and the WFL is more convenient to the Flats for them. (also inbound No. 39 buses get off the Shoreway and have a stop right at the WFL station at E. 9th. Why not integrate the services?)
Refuse to address? Not accurate. You just refuse to accept the obvious. Most persons using RTA rail rapids to commute downtown are not going to the East Flats directly during commuting hours. The only big office building there to my knowledge is Ernst & Young, and my bet is that most workers there drive. Having worked for a national accounting firm, accountants and consultants often need cars to visit clients. Additionally, I've always said that the WFL could run during commuting hours.

Unlike you, I find it wasteful and ridiculous to run the WFL during weekday afternoons, when likely there are very few riders IMO. My proposal is to replace the WFL during weekday afternoons with expanded trolley routes to better serve the greater downtown area and all of the lakeshore attractions.

Again, due to frequency of service being twice as high, and the shorter walk to the trolley stop at Tower City compared to the hike to the RTA hub, for bus riders, including on the Healthline, the trolley almost always is more convenient than the RTA hub, unless arriving downtown on rail rapids. And, again, on weekends, Friday nights, First Energy Field game days, etc., I would keep the WFL line running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- Why are there no promotional to support the WFL, like free tickets if you park at Muny Lot? Why aren't local leaders pumping the WFL like they are the Trolleys, which are subsidized?
Worthwhile question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- Why can't the 2 services compliment each other; why must it be an either/or, zero sum game for rail?
Currently, the WFL and bus trolleys do complement each other. The problem is that the WFL line in my experience has paltry ridership on weekdays outside of rush hours, so why waste the money operating it then. It would be better to use the funds to operate a flexible route bus or trolley line to better serve ALL downtown workers, residents, and especially tourists, e.g., providing service directly to the Great Lakes Science Museum, the Rock Hall, the U.S.S. Cod, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- I'm a rail rider who uses the Trolleys and the HL, but you somehow won't recognize that.
I recognize that, and that's why you emphasize the rail hub so much. In my visits downtown, I never use the Tower City rail hub when parking at PlayhouseSquare or cheap weekday lots on Prospect (where I use the E-line trolley to get to Public Square.

Different perspectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- There are, indeed, empty Trolley runs -- several; whether you want to recognize this or not. And when there is a special event and crowds at FEB, WFL trains outdraw C-Line Trolleys (although, once again, they tend to serve different audiences; just that suburbanites turn to the trains)
Empty trolleys are possible, but I've never seen one less than 25 percent full. The RTA, of course, should rely on actual ridership studies and not the anecdotal experiences of C-D posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- Phase 3 of FEB will eat up parking, generate more traffic and make the WFL more attractive ... or would you continue to favor your beloved trolleys and "special event" the WFL?
Maybe FEB Phase 3 will change the dynamics of the WFL, but likely not on weekday non-commuting runs.

What bothers me, and which you don't admit, for those RTA users downtown who aren't staying at a Tower City hotel, working there, or commuting by rail, the Tower City RTA hub is pain to get to compared the numerous trolley stops downtown and even the Tower City trolley stop right on Public Square. This especially true for visitors who have no idea how to get to TC rail hub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
- Your reaction to rail transit goes straight to "things Clevelanders take for granted" thread.
Baloney. I have problems with the WFL runs on weekdays outside of commuting hours. I think that RTA could provide much superior service in these hours with a flexible route trolley or just improved and extended routes for the E-line and B-line trolleys, providing service to the East Flats and direct service to all lakefront attractions.

By contrast, you would prefer to run empty or near empty WFL trains due to your obsession with fixed rail. Bizarre IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2018, 08:30 AM
 
4,490 posts, read 5,043,011 times
Reputation: 4789
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Refuse to address? Not accurate. You just refuse to accept the obvious. Most persons using RTA rail rapids to commute downtown are not going to the East Flats directly during commuting hours. The only big office building there to my knowledge is Ernst & Young, and my bet is that most workers there drive. Having worked for a national accounting firm, accountants and consultants often need cars to visit clients. Additionally, I've always said that the WFL could run during commuting hours.

Unlike you, I find it wasteful and ridiculous to run the WFL during weekday afternoons, when likely there are very few riders IMO. My proposal is to replace the WFL during weekday afternoons with expanded trolley routes to better serve the greater downtown area and all of the lakeshore attractions.

Again, due to frequency of service being twice as high, and the shorter walk to the trolley stop at Tower City compared to the hike to the RTA hub, for bus riders, including on the Healthline, the trolley almost always is more convenient than the RTA hub, unless arriving downtown on rail rapids. And, again, on weekends, Friday nights, First Energy Field game days, etc., I would keep the WFL line running.



Worthwhile question.



Currently, the WFL and bus trolleys do complement each other. The problem is that the WFL line in my experience has paltry ridership on weekdays outside of rush hours, so why waste the money operating it then. It would be better to use the funds to operate a flexible route bus or trolley line to better serve ALL downtown workers, residents, and especially tourists, e.g., providing service directly to the Great Lakes Science Museum, the Rock Hall, the U.S.S. Cod, etc.



I recognize that, and that's why you emphasize the rail hub so much. In my visits downtown, I never use the Tower City rail hub when parking at PlayhouseSquare or cheap weekday lots on Prospect (where I use the E-line trolley to get to Public Square.

Different perspectives.



Empty trolleys are possible, but I've never seen one less than 25 percent full. The RTA, of course, should rely on actual ridership studies and not the anecdotal experiences of C-D posters.



Maybe FEB Phase 3 will change the dynamics of the WFL, but likely not on weekday non-commuting runs.

What bothers me, and which you don't admit, for those RTA users downtown who aren't staying at a Tower City hotel, working there, or commuting by rail, the Tower City RTA hub is pain to get to compared the numerous trolley stops downtown and even the Tower City trolley stop right on Public Square. This especially true for visitors who have no idea how to get to TC rail hub.



Baloney. I have problems with the WFL runs on weekdays outside of commuting hours. I think that RTA could provide much superior service in these hours with a flexible route trolley or just improved and extended routes for the E-line and B-line trolleys, providing service to the East Flats and direct service to all lakefront attractions.

By contrast, you would prefer to run empty or near empty WFL trains due to your obsession with fixed rail. Bizarre IMO.
OK, I'm going to wrap my final comments on this because there's not much more to be said. Plus this is trending personal, and neither I, nor Yac, want that; especially since I admire the tireless work you do providing info on Cleveland. I'll just note a couple things:

-- Obsessed by rail? No, but I do think it's a tremendous asset that Cleveland is lucky to have and could stand to have more of -- look around at the other cities now building rapid transit that we've had for 100 years... I can't logically argue that WFL trains are well utilized. They are not; there are many empty trains during the day. WFL trains suffer from what FEB suffers -- both are dead, lack traffic by weekday but come alive on weekends. C-Line Trolleys into the Flats aren't doing any better, either. Hopefully FEB Phase 3 will change this. I do know that when there are big events on FEB, like Taste of Summer, I definitely see more WFL riders than Trolley riders, in fact this past TOS the 2 services were juxtaposed: a near empty Trolley passing by a 3 quarters full LRT train car.

IF the Flats can morph into something akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor, or the very least, the East Harbor bringing in people throughout regular days, then WFL traffic will spike, you can count on that...


-- You're still not directly addressing the dichotomy of ridership -- those already downtown as opposed to those coming into town from the City and suburbs, the latter being a significantly larger audience for which WFL trains COULD be a better option -- unfortunately, most Flats revelers now are choosing to drive to the big FEB surface lot, and others nearby, negating BOTH the WFL and the Trolleys... and that's a problem (hey look, I support ANY form of transit over driving and, btw for the record, I LOVE the Trolleys -- they're colorful and fun and people like them with their old-time wooden seats; and RTA has done a great job in clearly identifying Trolley routes and Trolley stops -- these Trolleys are a HUGE upgrade over the old Loop Buses they replaced -- and, of course, THEY'RE FREE!

... anyway, I actually wish both services well and believe they can and should compliment each other. As much as people enjoy the Trolleys to the Flats, they can, and have, enjoyed WFL trains -- they showed they would use the trains as they did back in the late 1990s on old Flats weekends... But they can't now, even with the new FEB development... Why? Because there are NO WFL trains past 7p both on weekdays and on crowded/crazy weekends and, to me, that MAKES NO SENSE for such a potential gem of a service to such a positive gem of a new neighborhood, as is the Flats... As I noted, for as great as Baltimore's Inner Harbor is -- and it's older and much stronger than our Flats at this point, neither of Baltimore's rail transit lines directly serve their Inner Harbor as our WFL does, today (the closest stop on either Baltimore's heave and light rail lines is a full 3 blocks away from the Inner Harbor)...

... and with that, I'm done with this topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cleveland

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top