Cleveland Development Discussions (Jackson, Ontario: charge, African-American, grass)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Nor should Cleveland expand public transit. All cities doing so now are wrong, in my opinion. Just massive waste of money. Boston, a city of high density where public transit even makes sense, wants to rob us blind. Their current cost is 3 billion for 3 miles of completely unnecessary light rail through hipster central (Somerville). It'll probably end up costing 2x that, because that's always how this kind of thing works. The whole point of it is for real estate guys to make money off speculation.

IMO Cleveland desperately needs to expand public transit. Just don't waste money on expensive rail when buses will do.

[Markymarke]

Originally Posted by Clevelander216

While I can see why you would say this with the changing dynamics on the west side, it's a bit of an overreaction though. The west side is nowhere near as bad as the majority of the east side; completely different worlds. The west side DOES have it's fair (and growing) share of crap neighborhoods though, which you are alluding to. It's really strange how the core of the city is growing and becoming a hot spot, driving the demand and pricing for housing WAY up; and that is also spreading to the near west neighborhoods. I really wonder how sustainable this growth of downtown is and if it will start spreading further out into the real crime ridden areas. It's almost like reverse white flight.

This is very true. I'm currently attending CSU and I have to say, other than the campus, which is pretty nice, there's nothing east until you get to university circle. But then past that, it's a **** show. My grandma lives in Cleveland heights over by Collin wood, and you cannot drive around without destroying your car. I recently had to get my axle replaced after driving around running her errands in those trash neighborhoods. I've lived in south Euclid for most of my life and its been on the slow decline for many years. It seems everyone is running out to Brunswick and strongsville which is depleting the east side. The westside though, is as white trash as it gets but closer to downtown is pretty hip and vibing. I dig it. Downtown is going to be fantastic. Let's go.

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by Clevelander216

The west side is nowhere near as bad as the majority of the east side

Not yet. Give it time.

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

The only comfort I take is that the core actually is seeing a real influx of educated people with professional careers. We are in a hole because we have so so so many uneducated people without jobs who aren't really looking either. It will take time for those people to either a) move elsewhere or b) turn their lives around. Hard to do that when half the population thinks you're incapable of anything. But anyway, the point is that this is not all that unusual. Most cities have always had strong cores and slums on the outskirts. The post war suburbanization was a very strange thing. So now yes we are looking at potentially a thriving downtown/OhioCity/other nearby neighborhoods, then an intermediate wasteland, and then nice suburbs on both the east and west sides. Hopefully over time the slums will be less dangerous ghettos and more lower middle class people trying to work their way up. I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon though, save for radical changes in policy.

Let's see if Trump can make good on his promise to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US. Maybe some of these uneducated people could find decent-paying work if it happens.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by andrew61

That's what I've been thinking all along. If they didn't want bus traffic going right through the Square, why didn't they just get rid of the roadway like they did with Ontario Street?

A Cleveland friend of mine, who's very familiar with Boston, is of the opinion that the Public Square redo was an attempt to emulate Boston Common, but doesn't work well in that regard because there's just not enough room for that type of park.

I loved the photos of the redone Public Square I saw on the internet... but the first time I went downtown and saw it in person, I was totally underwhelmed.

#missingChicago

Would never consider PS redo as an attempt at Boston Common. The PS redo was an attempt to use the space as best as possible with the ''bus lane'' ruining the whole thing. RTA balked at closing Superior Avenue otherwise it would have been closed as Mayor Jackson wanted then and now. Even the planner advocated that the buses shouldn't run through it but he had to do with the political/racial reality that is Cleveland.

The redo without any bus lane would have been much better and an addition to intergrate the bus lane would reach that goal. Not gonna happen. If you were underwhelmed in its current state, wait until the buses are running through it 24/7. Welcome back to Cleveland!

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Chicago is a prime example of core strength, neighborhoods declining. It is reverse white flight and it is happening in Cleveland to a degree. Downtown, OC, D-S, UC, Tremont, and some other areas are seeing seeds of stable growth. The momentum is growing, or so it seems.

The difference with Chicago is that the gentrified "core" (not just downtown) is huge... and keeps expanding ever outward.

Cleveland's problem is that it's economically stagnant, if not outright depressed... so there's only so much "core strength" that can be achieved.

[Clevelander216]

Originally Posted by Kamms

This is, as you state, what I am alluding to: the current west side is reminiscent of what the old east side was like. Decent neighborhoods with growing ''crap'' neighborhoods that, as we all know, declined to the state of war-torn, hollowed out, areas of despair. The same pattern is happening on the west side now.

Chicago is a prime example of core strength, neighborhoods declining. It is reverse white flight and it is happening in Cleveland to a degree. Downtown, OC, D-S, UC, Tremont, and some other areas are seeing seeds of stable growth. The momentum is growing, or so it seems.

The ''New East Side'' point is not an overreaction at all. It's real and is happening; the middle class is on the decline.

The PS/bus lane issue is a good example of the clash of class/race in Cleveland with the gentrification backdrop. Why do you think the ''Brelo verdict'' protesters targeted E 4th Street?

I guess my point is that the west side is really 50/50 right now. There really aren't any areas of the west side that are too far gone to the point of no return; pretty much bombed out, urban prairies like much of Detroit and some parts of the east side of Cleveland. There is still enough time to stabilize the worst parts before they do actually become east side reminiscent, I believe.

[Clevelander216]

Originally Posted by andrew61

The difference with Chicago is that the gentrified "core" (not just downtown) is huge... and keeps expanding ever outward.

Cleveland's problem is that it's economically stagnant, if not outright depressed... so there's only so much "core strength" that can be achieved.

Definitely agree with this. In Chicago the good areas outweigh the bad areas. The same definitely cannot be said for Cleveland. Much more of our city is in squalor as opposed to thriving like Ohio City and Downtown. Our development and gentrification is really restricted to such small, concentrated pockets.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by andrew61

The difference with Chicago is that the gentrified "core" (not just downtown) is huge... and keeps expanding ever outward.

Cleveland's problem is that it's economically stagnant, if not outright depressed... so there's only so much "core strength" that can be achieved.

Chicago's core is huge, but it has a huge city to carry and expand into. Lots of taxes are needed to bail the city and state out of its financial disaster.

Cleveland is attracting residents to its core/west side lakefront and other pocket areas and the PS bus lane issue is an example of the poor and working class vs. the gentrifiers (white people with some $$ and a college degree) upsetting the apple cart. Manufacturing jobs would help but Cleveland needs white collar STEM jobs.

The overall population growth for Chicago-Chicagoland-Illinois is stagnant to decline. Sure if you are Loop and its environs, everything looks rosy, but all is not well in Chicago either and its future political leadership is iffy and Rahm could win again by default, like he did last time. The Hispanic socialist alderman and a few of those professional reverends are on the mayoral election docket there. Last summer I was present when a gun fight broke out in the middle of Dearborn Street, at Division (aka the gold coast). This and the general police stand-down. No thanks.

The housing disaster in Chicago is not over either.

Cleveland needs an educated workforce; legitimate degrees, not the printed off the internet nonsense. The lack of an educated workforce along with Cleveland's socialist history has created the situation today. Cleveland's gentrification is just taking off so no one is or should compare it to Chicago. My response was rooted in the poster raising the growing downtown vs. shabby 'hoods in Cleveland.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by andrew61

IMO Cleveland desperately needs to expand public transit. Just don't waste money on expensive rail when buses will do.

Buses and Bus-Rapid Transit (BRT). BRT, if done right, is not bad. I like the HealthLine.