Cleveland Development Discussions (Cincinnati, Parma, Euclid: golf, masonry, creek)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Looks like SHW R+D is going to the old VA site in Brecksville.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2...urces-say.html
Too bad for downtown. HQ is still a go for public square so that's good. Maybe I'm totally biased but I never understand these corporate decisions for their creative departments. Whether its American Greetings, Eaton, or now SHW, it makes much more sense to me to get the creative element closer to where the younger crowd wants to be and closer to the educational resources. Putting it in the suburbs just screams old bureaucracy, old management style, etc. Need less of that crap and more thinking outside the box, new ideas, new strategies.

Agreed. Yet another thing that drives me crazy about Cleveland. In Chicago the trend for at least the last ten years has been for corporations leaving the suburbs and moving back downtown. McDonald's, for just one example, relocated its corporate headquarters from suburban Oak Brook into new offices in the West Loop.

And if one wants to take one of those jobs in Brecksville but live in the city, it means paying two local income taxes, which could discourage some.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

Found their main official website on their new HQ: https://www.sherwin-williams.com/buildingourfuture/

According to this website, SW hasn't even picked an architect yet, so we're probably several months away from any sort of rendering.

But for comparison, Key Tower is 1.2 million sq ft. So SW will spread this square footage across that 3 parking lot footprint.

My guess right now is a serious of mid-rise and low-rise buildings.

I'm thrilled gigantic, old-line SWP has finally settled the issue of where it's HQ is going (pending City architectural approvals, agreement(s) on incentives, etc), and is staying right in the heart of downtown and ridding us all that unsightly series of surface parking lots directly at the city's core. I am a bit disappointed the R&D facility won't be downtown but in the burbs; I'm even more disappointed in the suburb they chose: Brecksville. This is one of my least favorite Cleveland suburbs on several levels: it's non-diverse (95+% white at the last census IIRC), very conservative, isolated, sprawling, far away from quality mass transit, etc...

At the very least, though, the R&D will stay in greater Cleveland, which is a plus.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by andrew61

And if one wants to take one of those jobs in Brecksville but live in the city, it means paying two local income taxes, which could discourage some.

Actually, R&D center employees could receive a reduction in their municipal income taxes as Brecksville has a 2 percent municipal income tax rate versus 2.5 percent in Cleveland.


CCA - Division Of Taxation


https://www.ritaohio.com/TaxRatesTablef



Cleveland has a 100 percent residential income tax credit, so R&D center employees choosing to live in Cleveland would just pay the extra 50 basis points in Cleveland municipal income tax, as I understand it, but their overall municipal income tax rate would remain the same. They would have to file both RITA and CCA tax returns, a pain.



The Brecksville area would offer some of the best school districts in northeast Ohio, the Brecksville and Mill Stream Run Metropark Reservations and close proximity (10 minutes) to Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Brecksville is a 20- to25-minute commute to Solon, Twinsburg and Hudson.



https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017...n_northea.html


https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2018...t_in_ohio.html



R&D center employees with families may actually prefer Brecksville over the long run.


Possible beneficiaries of the SW Brecksville decision may be Independence, North Royalton, Richfield, Peninsula, Bath, Strongsville, Old Brooklyn and Cuyahoga Hts. Western Cleveland suburbs may lose some residents.


Additional stories:


https://www.cleveland.com/business/2...rd-center.html


https://www.crainscleveland.com/manu...er-brecksville


Here's something new: 1,000 A&K Steel employees heading to downtown Cleveland. But, the new SW HQ is being sized to accommodate moving Valspar employees from Minneapolis....



<<AK Steel's 1,000+ HQ employees who will be moved to Cleveland as a result of AK's acquisition by Cleveland Cliffs.>> I wonder if Cleveland Cliffs will look for a new downtown location.


http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/0...-news.html?m=1

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by andrew61

Agreed. Yet another thing that drives me crazy about Cleveland. In Chicago the trend for at least the last ten years has been for corporations leaving the suburbs and moving back downtown. McDonald's, for just one example, relocated its corporate headquarters from suburban Oak Brook into new offices in the West Loop.

Eh, it's an R&D facility which requires a large, outdoor footprint. The land is probably 10% of the cost in that area of Brecksville when compared to anywhere near downtown. Nobody is building 5 acre weathering fields in the West Loop either. The new McDonald's facility is also a relatively unimpressive looking facility. Maybe 10 stories? I'm sure it's nice on the interior, but it isn't exactly the (former) Hancock Tower. SWP will likely build a skyline altering structure, regardless of where the R&D facility is located.

And if one wants to take one of those jobs in Brecksville but live in the city, it means paying two local income taxes, which could discourage some.

Nope. That's not how that works.

[usaf_1832]

One interesting thought I had today -- "sprawl" going south may not a bad thing for some of us diehard "Cleveland or nowhere" people.

It actually better connects Cleveland to Akron. Perhaps one day Cleveland-Akron will be considered a metro area...which opens up a lot more national influence and federal tax $$$ allocations.

In fact, one of the metrics that is used in this determination is % of workers who commute from one metro area to another. Once that % gets to a certain point, metros can be combined.

I suspect we'll see an uptick in folks working in Cuyahoga County (Brecksville) while residing in Summit County--not just from this project specifically, but also from the spin off jobs and development it's going to create as well.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by usaf_1832

One interesting thought I had today -- "sprawl" going south may not a bad thing for some of us diehard "Cleveland or nowhere" people.

It actually better connects Cleveland to Akron. Perhaps one day Cleveland-Akron will be considered a metro area...which opens up a lot more national influence and federal tax $$$ allocations.

In fact, one of the metrics that is used in this determination is % of workers who commute from one metro area to another. Once that % gets to a certain point, metros can be combined.

I suspect we'll see an uptick in folks working in Cuyahoga County (Brecksville) while residing in Summit County--not just from this project specifically, but also from the spin off jobs and development it's going to create as well.

Granted, when MSAs are getting discussed we lose about 1M people automatically, but when we talk CSAs, the Cleveland region looks quite a bit larger. Granted there are some federal bucks involved, but on this forum - its really just a numbers game people play (ad infinitum) to make themselves feel better about themselves.

With the recent high rise residential going up (Lumen, Beacon, City Club), there's a lot of great things going on in downtown. Its a lot to be proud of.

[Cleveland_Collector]

If Dallas-Fort Worth, Seattle-Tacoma and Miami-Ft Lauderdale-W. Palm Beach are all considered MSAs, how is Cleveland-Akron not? Two distinct cities - one larger, one smaller - whose downtown areas are all within 40 lineal miles of each other and are in adjacent counties with no appreciable, undeveloped area between them other than a small national park centered along a shared river valley. Same media, same economic nucleus, same major sports teams, same major international airport and extensive inter-county commutes. It makes no sense. Miami and W. Palm are 70 miles away from each other.

[usaf_1832]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

If Dallas-Fort Worth, Seattle-Tacoma and Miami-Ft Lauderdale-W. Palm Beach are all considered MSAs, how is Cleveland-Akron not? Two distinct cities - one larger, one smaller - whose downtown areas are all within 40 lineal miles of each other and are in adjacent counties with no appreciable, undeveloped area between them other than a small national park centered along a shared river valley. Same media, same economic nucleus, same major sports teams, same major international airport and extensive inter-county commutes. It makes no sense. Miami and W. Palm are 70 miles away from each other.

It also hurts us economically we have two airports between to two cities.

- SeaTac has three hubs!
- DFW is massive and has hubs.
- MIA is massive and has hubs

I know it would take a ton of coordination and money to have one NEO airport, but for the economic benefits of being an airline hub airport and having international flights... combining forces would just about do the trick.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by TheProf

I'm thrilled gigantic, old-line SWP has finally settled the issue of where it's HQ is going (pending City architectural approvals, agreement(s) on incentives, etc), and is staying right in the heart of downtown and ridding us all that unsightly series of surface parking lots directly at the city's core. I am a bit disappointed the R&D facility won't be downtown but in the burbs; I'm even more disappointed in the suburb they chose: Brecksville. This is one of my least favorite Cleveland suburbs on several levels: it's non-diverse (95+% white at the last census IIRC), very conservative, isolated, sprawling, far away from quality mass transit, etc...

At the very least, though, the R&D will stay in greater Cleveland, which is a plus.

Having family at the R&D center downtown who are non particularly suburban apologists, nevertheless it seems indisputable that a downtown location for experimentation and storing massive amounts of chemicals is not ideal. I think it's a good idea to keep such things further away. Lots of environmental concerns.

Brecksville has a very nice, quaint little town square and good living amenities. Right by the Brecksville Reservation, which is one of my favorites, as well as the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Easy access to skiing too, if you're into that (I am not).

The 77F will take you from Brecksville to Independence and then downtown via I-77. The 51B goes from Brecksville through Seven Hills and Parma into Old Brooklyn and Ohio City before downtown.

While I am not looking to move to Brecksville any time soon, I don't think it's a bad place. You can do a lot worse. Considerably more pleasant than Independence, North Royalton, Northfield, Macedonia, etc.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

While I am not looking to move to Brecksville any time soon, I don't think it's a bad place.

My ONLY knock on Brecksville is that it's very hilly.

I had a friend with a steep driveway off a main, busy road. Once, in winter, the driveway had little snow but was extremely slippery. Even though I had my brakes on and started down the driveway very, very slowly (I have experience driving on steep slopes in winter; especially the old Vrooman Road off Route 84 in central Lake County; Vrooman is an I-90 interchange), I still almost slid into ongoing traffic. Very scary. It also wasn't easy getting up that driveway in winter. The owner often parked at the bottom of the hill on the driveway and trudged up to the house, risking a slip while climbing or descending.

Anyone living on a hill in Brecksville IMO should be prepared to spend many hours cleaning and salting the driveway. A hillside driveway is not one where you can ignore several inches of snow on your driveway and just drive though it. My memory is that some persons in Brecksville have heated driveways.

Geologic creep also is an issue for hillside homes, especially impacting foundations over time.

https://www.britannica.com/science/creep-slope-movement

BTW, the old Vrooman Road is closed and being replaced by a high level bridge over the Grand River which should open this year. No longer will drivers have to descend on a 45 degree slope (it actually was steeper at times, not kidding) into the Grand River Valley and then climb out of the valley on an equally steep slope. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similarly scary road somewhere in the Brecksville area!

https://www.workzonecam.com/projects...y/vroomanroad1