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It's not wrong to feel the way anyone feels. I'll start there.
The city has changed even since a few years ago with Edgewater Beach or Marina 55 (I think that's it).
This is between you and your wife. Curious...did you read her your post? I'd hate to see you depressed and she feels guilty over that, since that's not her responsibility.
There are MANY solid areas all around CLE. I live 2 miles from the beach in Southern CAL in an area that is knows as one of the best areas in the country. I prefer CLE. I like nice people, historical buildings, sports teams where I don't have to drive 2 hrs. to Los Angeles, MetroParks, and so on. My wife and I plan to move there for at least 9 months out of the year when I retire. If someone offered me a job with similar pay, it might be sooner.
I'm not you and same back.
Honestly, you better be honest with your wife on this, IMO.
Maybe it's her dream job, but does she want to live in CLE?
You can't let us decide or make you feel good or bad about it. Talk to your wife.
Cubsguy, I am right there with you. I am debating moving back to my home state after living almost 25 years in arguably one of the best cities in the country (Boston). I am facing similar 'do I, don't I' moments. I am not a Cleveland fanboi, but have spent a fair amount of time in the city. I'll throw out some thoughts:
1. Job. CCF is truly incredible. My mom is an oncology patient at CCF (and has been thru a number of specialists and surgeries there). The level of care and compassion is on par with the best hospitals in the country. And the generally upbeat demeanor of the staff leads me to believe it's also a great place to work. So, great job and excellent medical care available to you and your family. Check.
2. Cleveland perceived as negative. Yes, I get that (and honestly I have that same concern sometimes). But the CLE a lot of folks know is not the CLE that actually lives and breathes. And, CLE has come a LONG way in 10 years. Does it have the 'street cred' of Austin or Nashville. No. But there is a TON of money being pored into both commercial real estate and startups, both which say alot regarding the current state of the city. It may always be known by those less evolved as the 'Mistake by the Lake'. But, the pity's on them.
3. I agree on the Lakefront. But, the city has finally started to invest in the Lakefront...Edgewater Park used to be a nightmare and they are cleaning up the Marinas. Is it LSD in Chicago (or the Harborwalk in Boston)? No. But, I have to think as the city 'takes off', city planners will realize that the more they can highlight the lakefront, the better off they will be. If all else fails, get a boat
4. Lake Erie: Yes, it has toxic bloom some years. Reminds me of filthy Boston Harbor when I moved out east. Good news is that CLE is investing a lot of money to at least shut down their storm overflow runoff. Do they need help from the Feds to shut down ag runoff and the Detroit storm overflow? Yes. Is it not as clean as Lakes Michigan and Huron. Yes. But, I feel like Erie is not being swept under the rug and folks are focused and trying to fix the problem. 10-20 years can make a big difference in the health of a water system.
5. I do think you are being a bit harsh on the tourism video. I suspect someone might say the same about the Triangle. Did you look at the Annual Events page of the tourism website. I admit I was pleasantly surprised about the number of street fairs/to dos around town. https://www.thisiscleveland.com/thin.../annual-events. And, even better, many of them are living/breathing neighborhood and cultural stuff, and they won't stay stagnant year over year.
6. Comparing Chicago/Small town MI and CLE. It's true, CLE is not going to have everything Chicago does (from eats to culture). Some of that comes down to sheer size. But it's unfair to lump in CLE with Lansing. (and trust me, I grew up in Ohio in a town the size of Lansing). I like to think of CLE as a happy medium between really big cities and small town backwaters. And, I suspect if you really look under the surface, the foodie culture will be stronger than the triangle (hello, Micheal Symon that started the bacon craze like 10 years ago!).
7. Insular and obsessive. Well, 10 or 20 years ago, I would absolutely agree with this comment. But Cleveland has turned the corner and started to draw people back in. Again, is it Chicago? No. But I've found there is a growing 'hey, we've found this cool town' vibe that is forcing many, many longtime residents to change their tune. It's the same in most cities when new blood comes to town..Boston had it 25 years ago and CLE now. I think this will only decrease as the 'tide' rises in CLE. And, I would suspect there are folks who are insular and obsessive about the Triangle too...with all its growth. You might not see it, but I suspect it's out there.
8. The weather is what you make of it. I get SAD too, and a good sad light and plenty of winter outdoor exercise (skiing) does wonders for me. And, with the low COL (and good salary) you can have plenty of $$$ to get away for a few weeks every winter (I usually go to the islands the week after Christmas and for a week or two in Feb/March (or skiing in Utah, plenty sunny). Also, winters are hella more mild than they were 30 years ago....and unfortunately, that likely ain't gonna change. I was walking the dog in a long sleeve shirt on Thanksgiving and Christmas this year (just south of CLE). Any more, there are probably 4 bad months of riding (Dec-Mar) otherwise, put on some skins and get out there. Lake Effect snow is a very real phenomenon, stay on the West Side if you really want to minimize the snow impact.
9. Taxes. Yes, they are high (and trust me, I come from a decently high tax state). But, the thing is in CLE, property is SO cheap. You might pay a little more in property taxes, but your RE dollar goes a LOT farther. And I suspect the schools are as good, if not better in greater Cleveland. Honestly, $500k in Shaker gets you a 4 to 6 bd, 4k square foot house with a fair amount of land. That's a lotta house in a top performing school district. I honestly don't think they are that bad, considering the city services and infrastructure. I don't think the differential is it's enough to send a kid to a 4 year college. But it's a factor.
Raleigh Durham and the triangle are not a bad place to live. In fact, one of the better non-huge metro areas of the south. So it's a tough decision, particularly since you don't like the cold. But, I honestly feel like the tide has turned on CLE and it's really on the upswing (oh, lord, I hope it is). One thing you can consider is that maybe in 5-10 years you'll get your dream job and move somewhere your wife doesn't love. Or, talk to your wife about giving it 3 years and if you hate it, move back. CCF on a resume can only open doors...and having a strong salary in first jobs pays off 10 fold down the line.
I think it's one of those things whether you can find enough to be proud of, where-ever you may live.
Thank you for this, lots of great perspective here. I'm in full support of her accepting the CCF offer, and in the end it's what we are likely to do. At best she has her dream career. At worst, if it isn't what she thought (unlikely) after a few years we move on which we've grown accustomed to. Honestly, I'm just tired of moving every 3 years and ready to settle down for at least awhile. We're still going to check out Raleigh-Durham this weekend so we can make the best decision, but ultimately the offer at CCF can't be beat.
I've spent a lot of today really researching things, looking at homes, schools, etc. I'm only seeing a handful of homes that we like and then I click on the taxes and cringe...but I'm starting to accept that is how it is with taxes. As for inventory I have to keep in mind that it's January and while our housing market is on fire here as it is already Spring it will be a couple of more months before lots of inventory comes online in CLE for the Spring season.
One thing we even talked about was an interim strategy of buying a home way below our means for a good price, fixing and selling after we know exactly what we want before our son is in kindergarten (he just turned 2). We're not afraid of improving a property as we have done it on our last two homes and done well. If all is well after a couple of years at CCF then we make the bigger investment in the area and school district we want and have the flexibility to be patient for the right house.
If we can't find a house we like while living in a house way below our means buying a teardown and building what we would want and while having a place to stay in the interim is a possible strategy. We've noticed larger lots and see infill teardowns are happening in Beechwood. Might be an option there. I see a lot of tutors, older homes, ranches and cape cods and where I grew up these are torn down all day long for modern homes.
And I found one big positive about CLE. Large selection of non-HOA homes which is not always the case in the Carolinas. I detest HOAs (and I am an HOA president!) Also, I am a Cedar Point fanatic. We will get to go at least a couple times a year so I can marathon ride Millenium Force!
Last edited by cubsguy81; 01-15-2020 at 07:31 PM..
It's not wrong to feel the way anyone feels. I'll start there.
The city has changed even since a few years ago with Edgewater Beach or Marina 55 (I think that's it).
This is between you and your wife. Curious...did you read her your post? I'd hate to see you depressed and she feels guilty over that, since that's not her responsibility.
There are MANY solid areas all around CLE. I live 2 miles from the beach in Southern CAL in an area that is knows as one of the best areas in the country. I prefer CLE. I like nice people, historical buildings, sports teams where I don't have to drive 2 hrs. to Los Angeles, MetroParks, and so on. My wife and I plan to move there for at least 9 months out of the year when I retire. If someone offered me a job with similar pay, it might be sooner.
I'm not you and same back.
Honestly, you better be honest with your wife on this, IMO.
Maybe it's her dream job, but does she want to live in CLE?
You can't let us decide or make you feel good or bad about it. Talk to your wife.
Good luck!
Oh we are definitely talking and 100% honest with each other. She is aware of my issues with CLE and agrees with me on many of them. She knows where I would be most happy, and we did look for jobs in those places, but they weren't the best fit for her. Eventually we can end up back in a geography that we both can love. She says its not an ideal place to live but the best opportunites aren't always. And it's not just CLE. We passed on interviewing in Boston and NYC due to taxes and VHCOL. But it is about her career and I don't want to deprive her of this opportunity over my pettiness. I signed up for this madness when I married her before she started medical school, but you never really know it until you live it.
In the end, it is the midwest. I know it well. I can make it work even if it isn't perfect. It's my home, but after leaving I discovered I liked the south more and never wanted to return home. It's super hard to give up the lifestyle, LCOL, weather and great friends we've made here.
Oh we are definitely talking and 100% honest with each other. She is aware of my issues with CLE and agrees with me on many of them. She knows where I would be most happy, and we did look for jobs in those places, but they weren't the best fit for her. Eventually we can end up back in a geography that we both can love. She says its not an ideal place to live but the best opportunites aren't always. And it's not just CLE. We passed on interviewing in Boston and NYC due to taxes and VHCOL. But it is about her career and I don't want to deprive her of this opportunity over my pettiness. I signed up for this madness when I married her before she started medical school, but you never really know it until you live it.
In the end, it is the midwest. I know it well. I can make it work even if it isn't perfect. It's my home, but after leaving I discovered I liked the south more and never wanted to return home.
Thanks all for being therapists
This is a good problem to have. You will make where-ever you land work for you and you and your family will thrive.
That sounds like a really sensible strategy, cubsguy. There's precious little on the market right now but of course that'll change as spring and summer arrive. I can't believe I forgot about Rocky River in my earlier post, but I echo the previous poster that that would be a good place to look. Totally out of the snow belt, great school system, and near lots of upscale shopping. Also look in Westlake around Crocker Park--my mom lives near there and absolutely adores the area. Very upscale. I haven't been to Avon but what I hear tells me it would likely be another place that would suit you. The farther west you go the worse your wife's commute will be though, so that's something to consider. Rocky River would probably put you around a half hour each way.
And frankly, if you want super low property taxes and are thinking of moving when your son goes to school anyway, you might consider someplace like Kamm's Corner. You could buy a house for (by your standards) pennies, fix it to be gorgeous, and rent it out--Kamm's is a solid place for rentals and seems likely to remain that way. It's also a solid market for houses in general* so if you do want to sell soon it should be easy enough.
*It's solid because Cleveland laws require police and firefighters to live in-city, and most of them choose Kamm's. So the K-8 school is pretty good, and it's much safer than some other areas of Cleveland, but it still has all the historic niceness and access to the red line when you want to go downtown or to University Circle. Plus it's easy to drive out west for shopping.
That sounds like a really sensible strategy, cubsguy. There's precious little on the market right now but of course that'll change as spring and summer arrive. I can't believe I forgot about Rocky River in my earlier post, but I echo the previous poster that that would be a good place to look. Totally out of the snow belt, great school system, and near lots of upscale shopping. Also look in Westlake around Crocker Park--my mom lives near there and absolutely adores the area. Very upscale. I haven't been to Avon but what I hear tells me it would likely be another place that would suit you. The farther west you go the worse your wife's commute will be though, so that's something to consider. Rocky River would probably put you around a half hour each way.
And frankly, if you want super low property taxes and are thinking of moving when your son goes to school anyway, you might consider someplace like Kamm's Corner. You could buy a house for (by your standards) pennies, fix it to be gorgeous, and rent it out--Kamm's is a solid place for rentals and seems likely to remain that way. It's also a solid market for houses in general* so if you do want to sell soon it should be easy enough.
*It's solid because Cleveland laws require police and firefighters to live in-city, and most of them choose Kamm's. So the K-8 school is pretty good, and it's much safer than some other areas of Cleveland, but it still has all the historic niceness and access to the red line when you want to go downtown or to University Circle. Plus it's easy to drive out west for shopping.
She's pretty set on the east side of town, mainly because of the commute. I did mention Rocky River to her for the lower taxes and less snow and it will be on our list for sure as you never know until you see it.
Good point on renting out the house instead of selling. That's definitely an option as we'd like to own rental properties. Cleveland is certainly a solid market to do that.
She's pretty set on the east side of town, mainly because of the commute. I did mention Rocky River to her for the lower taxes and less snow and it will be on our list for sure as you never know until you see it.
Good point on renting out the house instead of selling. That's definitely an option as we'd like to own rental properties. Cleveland is certainly a solid market to do that.
I'll echo Rocky River (I am a recent transplant to RR). Completely out of the snow belt and lower taxes...and a fantastic sense of community.
Check out the Beachcliff area (NE corner of the city).
My wife and I both go to the main campus CC for various appointments throughout the year, and it literally tasks 25 min each way. Super easy.
EDIT: Plus you're next door to the Rocky River Reservation (jogging/biking paths) and close to Lakewood Park.
She's pretty set on the east side of town, mainly because of the commute. I did mention Rocky River to her for the lower taxes and less snow and it will be on our list for sure as you never know until you see it.
Good point on renting out the house instead of selling. That's definitely an option as we'd like to own rental properties. Cleveland is certainly a solid market to do that.
She definitely has a point. 90 is no joke at rush hour. But--and I'm not sure if you two are aware, since I know you've been to Cleveland before--east side commute times aren't much less. It takes a surprisingly long time to get anywhere because of the lack of freeways. For instance, when I put everything in google maps, it tells me it's 23 minutes from Rocky River to CC's main campus (ditto from Kamm's) and 30+ minutes from Chagrin Falls. Somewhere like Shaker Heights at 14 minutes or Beachwood at 20 minutes might suit your overall needs better. There's not much difference between Beachwood and RR if you're going not at rush hour, and if she's going weird hours, then that's something to consider. But if you are, there's a difference. I follow the NEO Scanner twitter page closely, and I swear every other freeway accident is on 90 westbound between downtown and RR. :sigh:
You might find hidden gems as well. Last visit, I found a Mexican Market..I think in Mentor, that had a little restaurant inside and it was one of those places that reminded me of here in CAL and the food was very authentic. Up to that point, I had been bummed with not finding what I consider Mexican Food. I've added Camino Taco (Downtown) to my list after my last visit.
The weather might also be a plus! It seems warmer and milder in the winter these days- I think it was 60 deg. last week!! It was warmer than here in SB, CA. Crazy!!
If you enjoy sports, you have it all. Theatre, too. I am not familiar with Chicago- other than Lu Malnatis, but assume you had all that, too.
Just keep learning about the area. You are an intelligent person. It'll be fine.
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