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I thought the same about South Carolina before I moved here. I thought I would be a "Yankee", it would be southern accents, small minded people, etc. It couldn't be further from the truth. The people are the NICEST of anywhere I have lived. The natural beauty of the area is just incredible. It has a very low cost of living. The reality is Charleston is largely transplants from the midwest. The locals are outnumbered by transplants. Tons of Ohio, Illinois and PA people. In fact, the influx of Ohio people is so great it is a local meme here. GBTO (Go back to Ohio) as a tounge in cheek friendly thing. Spend a little time on the Charleston Reddit page and you'll see it everywhere. Ohio State and Big Ten flags are the rule here. The food here is absolutely world class as well.
Ok, what do I like. Good food. The beach. Swimming. Road biking and running. I run the Chicago marathon each year so I spend a lot of hours on running trails. Being outside. You can see why it is incompatiable with winter But weather is not an issue, Yes I will hate it. I grew up with it, I've seen the worst of it in 2013-2014 and know what it is about. I like hot and humid. Hate crisp fall days. But I can deal.
I keep reading low cost of living. How so? Based on the tax burden I view Cleveland as bad as Chicago/Illinois, if not worse. I'm seeing $500K houses with 15K property tax burdens, for example. In Illinois it would be $4-5K for that type of house, and only $1100 here in SC.
Also, Ohio has state and city taxes (city tax being something I have never seen, and Chicago taxes everything!)
I strongly advise against you moving to Cleveland, for your own sake and the sake of your marriage. Cleveland is a great place to live and work, but you have to enjoy the perks of a mid size city (low cost of living [yes, high taxes, but hard to buy houses with cash in other fast-growing cities AND lower tax rates elsewhere are offset by significantly higher housing prices], zero traffic, good restaurants, good arts, great weather). Nothing personally against you, but it seems that you're wishing for yourself to like Cleveland more and you seem a bit like the type who could possibly develop resentment to those around you if you feel forced to make a decision that benefits someone other than yourself. Besides, you might be the one person in the world who declares a love of humidity -- humidity is the sole reason I will never again live south of the Mason Dixon line.
I sometimes think transplants like Cleveland better than the natives. We’ve had promotions and opportunities come up several times since moving here and we turn them down. We even moved BACK here after a short stint in the supposed, amazingly wonderful city of Nashville.
I've ridden my bike in several big cities. I've ridden down to/from the south end of the lakefront trail in Chicago (most of which is ugly, bombed out and in the 'hood once you're south of McCormick Place) all the way to Evanston (about 40% of it was street riding).
Are we talking about the same city? No part of Chicago's lakefront is "bombed out", not even on the South Side. Not even once the Lakefront Trail ends at South Shore Drive. You have to go a few miles further south on South Shore Drive towards Indiana State Line before you hit that. That area is bad.
On the north side, the Lakefront Trail ends at Hollywood, it doesn't go to Evanston. It is bike lanes from there. Chicago also has the 606, the extensive forest preserve system throughout all of the city and suburbs with trails too, in addition to many other trails such as the Prarie Path and Great Western Trail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector
On average, property taxes here are moderate at worst. There are a few east side communities that are pretty high, so simply don't move there. The mistake most people from high COL areas make is looking at the percentage instead of the value. $800k here buys you a 5-6 bedroom palace on 3/4 of an acre. $800k in River North gets you 300 more square feet and a 3rd bedroom on a... oh wait, no yard to speak of. I had a colleague who moved here from San Jose give me the same gripe -- the tax bill was the same. What she neglected to mention at first was that she had a 1,000 sq. ft. townhome on half of a postage stamp in San Jose and now has a 4,500 sq. ft. home on 2 acres here. It's like comparing apples to a dry-aged ribeye.
Here's my perspective with property taxes.
My parents own a house in one of the most desirable western suburbs of Chicago. Top notch schools (state and nationally), central to everything, 15 minutes to downtown on the Metra one block away with a vibrant walkable downtown. Yards are fairly large as it is an old inner ring suburb from the 1800s. They bought in the 1980s for $225K. The house is now at least $1.3M. The house is a 5 BR 3500 Sq feet. Property taxes are $10K per year.
In Michigan, we owned a 3BR 2300 Sq Ft House on a .5 acre lot for $225K 2 blocks from an inland lake and extensive trails in a forest (Bought undervalued and sold for $310K) Property taxes were $4K. Sort of high for the valuation, but not the end of the world.
In Charleston, we own a 4BR 2500 Sq ft house 5 minutes from the beach that is $475K (Bought for $400K 3 years ago) and has property taxes of $1300 per year. Big corner lot on a Cul-de-sac. This same house put in a far flung suburb of Chicago like Naperville would be $600-700K with a 8-10K property tax bill all day long. So compartively it is cheap and the location is far superior.
In Cleveland we are looking at houses that are primarily $500-600K (but would go as high as 800K if it were a perfect forever home) and I am seeing property tax bills from $15K to as high as $20-25K.
Local taxes in northeast Ohio, such as increased property taxes and often 25-percent higher municipal income taxes, are direct results of Republican state cuts in local funding support in order to cut taxes on the wealthy and on businesses (such as ridiculous exemptions on pass-through entities). While state local government support has been cut for cities, rural townships, even wealthy ones, reportedly have seen no cuts to their local government funding or other subsidies from the state.
In Illinois, property taxes have soared as well due to state cuts in local funding support. Guess who did it?
Democrats.
And more specifically, Democrat supermajorities that have ruled for 40+ years. But the problem there is raiding pension funds, overspending, corruption, large govt at a scale not seen anywhere else in the US and I could go on.
Interestingly in South Carolina our property taxes are super low and the state doesn't give much money to cities here either. The counties levy a property tax on cars "to make up the difference", but it is in the hundreds of dollars and declines annually until you are driving an old car (15 year old Honda) like me and it is next to nothing. Still comes nowhere near the tax burden of northern states. The difference is we don't have a large gov't beast to feed and spend only on necessities. Different philsophy, and one I personally agree with.
And pass through entities are perfectly legal. Available to you, me and anyone. Once we decide where we are living we'll get an attorney and accountant knowledgable in local laws and be using them to reduce liabilites from taxes and lawsuits alike. Everyone should.
In Illinois, property taxes have soared as well due to state cuts in local funding support. Guess who did it?
Democrats.
And more specifically, Democrat supermajorities that have ruled for 40+ years. But the problem there is raiding pension funds, overspending, corruption, large govt at a scale not seen anywhere else in the US and I could go on.
Interestingly in South Carolina our property taxes are super low and the state doesn't give much money to cities here either. The counties levy a property tax on cars "to make up the difference", but it is in the hundreds of dollars and declines annually until you are driving an old car (15 year old Honda) like me and it is next to nothing. Still comes nowhere near the tax burden of northern states. The difference is we don't have a large gov't beast to feed and spend only on ncecessities. Different philsophy.
And pass through entities are perfectly legal. Available to you, me and anyone. Once we decide where we are living we'll get an attorney and accountant and be using them to reduce liabilites from taxes and lawsuits alike. Everyone should.
So are the schools are funded with county levies? We considered SC for a split second and the schools are not comparable to ours here. HUGE, HUGE schools where your kid is one of thousands when they are in high school. Rocky River has less than 900 kids. I wonder how much per pupil SC schools spend.
For those native Clevelanders (or transplants) responding to this thread...just remember, many of us moving back (or to) CLE have similar doubts. And in the age of the internet, we all have access to the same information (correct or not).
If you want your city to grow, transplants are essential. Be kind and compassionate in your responses so as not to scare us away
This.
How many people move to Cleveland by choice? I'd venture to guess not as many as those that relocate for the reason we would.
I've lived in 2 cities people flock to by choice and another where everyone who is there is from there or wants to leave. I've seen most of the United States. Cleveland is never a place I would have visited had it not been my wife doing a rotation at CCF and would have had no desire to do so. Detroit is same bucket. But I will agree, Cleveland is NOT Detroit. Not even close.
I often tell people everyone needs to see Detroit in person to fully appreciate the extent of the devestation.
If we do come, I already know it isn't going to be a place I would have freely chosen, but I will make the most of it. I could build a thriving Real Estate and rental property business that would be harder to do in other places.
So are the schools are funded with county levies? We considered SC for a split second and the schools are not comparable to ours here. HUGE, HUGE schools where your kid is one of thousands when they are in high school. Rocky River has less than 900 kids. I wonder how much per pupil SC schools spend.
Every school in the state has equitbale funding per pupil. Mt Pleasant (where we live) has some of the best schools in the state, and North Charleston even had their high school ranked #1 in the country (not sure I would agree with that or any surveys, but for the sake of argument it is good). Now, the schools are not equal across the state by any measure despite same per pupil funding. Counties can levy additional taxes (cars, sales) and devote funding to whatever. Charleston County does this and invests in schools. But on a $40K car we are talking like $500 a year (and goes down from there every year as the car depreciates) to the point where my 15 year old car is $10 per year. They also have a penny of the sales tax (1%) for schools. Our overall Sales tax is 9% which you could say is high, but few places are below that these days. Chicago is over 10% and even 12% on some things.
The other difference is parent involvement. Parents are highly involved here. Other places in SC, not so much.
Where we are in Mt Pleasant there are two high schools (second opening this fall), one with 1700 kids and another with 2000. I went to a high school of 3,000 kids in Chicago and loved it. I think a smaller school is fine, but to each their own on that preference.
My aunt and uncle purchased a single-family, detached home in a golf course community within Vernon Hills, IL (Chicago suburb in Lake County) in 1999. Their house has a current market valuation of $608K and their annual tax bill is $17,400, according to the online Lake County Property Database.
DR J
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubsguy81
Are we talking about the same city? No part of Chicago's lakefront is "bombed out", not even on the South Side. Not even once the Lakefront Trail ends at South Shore Drive. You have to go a few miles further south on South Shore Drive towards Indiana State Line before you hit that. That area is bad.
On the north side, the Lakefront Trail ends at Hollywood, it doesn't go to Evanston. It is bike lanes from there. Chicago also has the 606, the extensive forest preserve system throughout all of the city and suburbs with trails too, in addition to many other trails such as the Prarie Path and Great Western Trail.
Here's my perspective with property taxes.
My parents own a house in one of the most desirable western suburbs of Chicago. Top notch schools (state and nationally), central to everything, 15 minutes to downtown on the Metra one block away with a vibrant walkable downtown. Yards are fairly large as it is an old inner ring suburb from the 1800s. They bought in the 1980s for $225K. The house is now at least $1.3M. The house is a 5 BR 3500 Sq feet. Property taxes are $10K per year.
In Michigan, we owned a 3BR 2300 Sq Ft House on a .5 acre lot for $225K 2 blocks from an inland lake and extensive trails in a forest (Bought undervalued and sold for $310K) Property taxes were $4K. Sort of high for the valuation, but not the end of the world.
In Charleston, we own a 4BR 2500 Sq ft house 5 minutes from the beach that is $475K (Bought for $400K 3 years ago) and has property taxes of $1300 per year. Big corner lot on a Cul-de-sac. This same house put in a far flung suburb of Chicago like Naperville would be $600-700K with a 8-10K property tax bill all day long. So compartively it is cheap and the location is far superior.
In Cleveland we are looking at houses that are primarily $500-600K (but would go as high as 800K if it were a perfect forever home) and I am seeing property tax bills from $15K to as high as $20-25K.
My aunt and uncle purchased a single-family, detached home in a golf course community within Vernon Hills, IL (Chicago suburb in Lake County) in 1999. Their house has a current market valuation of $608K and their annual tax bill is $17,400, according to the online Lake County Property Database.
DR J
For what it's worth, just found a property tax calculator for Cuyahoga County:
I think Shaker and Cleveland Heights are the outliers, but you're right, pretty comparable to suburban IL.
Thanks for that link. Very helpful.
What's the appeal process like in Ohio? In Cook (Crook) County IL you can usually hire a law firm and get the taxes knocked down and doing it regularly results in a substantially lower burden than those who don't. The law firm takes a cut of the savings if they succeed so no out of pocket.
It's big business in IL. Anything similar in OH?
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But weather is not an issue, Yes I will hate it. I grew up with it, I've seen the worst of it in 2013-2014 and know what it is about. I like hot and humid. Hate crisp fall days. But I can deal.
