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Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,313,074 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferraris
I can attest to this. The worst case scenario with 15 minute intervals is that you miss the bus or train by seconds, even seeing it take off without you, and then you wait 15 more minutes. It's annoying, but your day's schedule can recover from it. If you don't consult the schedule, on average you'll be waiting 7-8 minutes, which is acceptable in most cases.
I am glad that the blue and green lines exist, but I think the 30 minute frequency beyond Shaker Square really does hamper them quite a bit. I think the same problem existed with the Waterfront line when that was still running, with only some blue/green trains traveling the extension.
As for your question, RTA's website answers it https://www.riderta.com/systemmap. Just filter for 15 minutes or better on the system map.
I had some trouble loading the website, so I will transcribe the 15 minute routes here:
Red Line
HealthLine
Blue/Green thru Shaker Square (the website incorrectly labels this as the Waterfront line)
1
3
10
14
15
19
22
26
28
51
I filtered on Weekday Midday, but you can select other times on the website.
Intervals on many of those routes change to every 30 minutes after 6:30 pm (the 26 comes to mind since I use it a lot). This is also true of the HealthLine, although its changeover occurs somewhat later in the evening.
I can attest to this. The worst case scenario with 15 minute intervals is that you miss the bus or train by seconds, even seeing it take off without you, and then you wait 15 more minutes. It's annoying, but your day's schedule can recover from it. If you don't consult the schedule, on average you'll be waiting 7-8 minutes, which is acceptable in most cases.
I am glad that the blue and green lines exist, but I think the 30 minute frequency beyond Shaker Square really does hamper them quite a bit. I think the same problem existed with the Waterfront line when that was still running, with only some blue/green trains traveling the extension.
As for your question, RTA's website answers it https://www.riderta.com/systemmap. Just filter for 15 minutes or better on the system map.
I had some trouble loading the website, so I will transcribe the 15 minute routes here:
Red Line
HealthLine
Blue/Green thru Shaker Square (the website incorrectly labels this as the Waterfront line)
1
3
10
14
15
19
22
26
28
51
I filtered on Weekday Midday, but you can select other times on the website.
Oh holy cow, this site is fantastic! Every transit agency should have this. When was this deployed?
I do wish since there aren't yet a huge surfeit of lines that they did a little bit of color separation within a color band for each frequency to help further distinguish the shared lines a bit and I see there's at least one mislabeling, but this is overall great.
[quote=OyCrumbler;63787404]Oh holy cow, this site is fantastic! Every transit agency should have this. When was this deployed? Totally agree, the site is extremely well designed and presented i.e. the static System Map which I bookmarked even though I don't now live in NE Ohio (but plan to return in the next year or two when nest empties ;-)... it's just (pleasantly) mesmerizing.
Personally, I think more important use of funds would be restoring trolley service downtown with late night hours to Playhouse Square and the East Flats. Personally, I wouldn't object if RTA began charging $1 for trolley rides.
Also I think a major priority should be extending 24/7 Healthline service to a park 'n ride station in Euclid, which hopefully also would be serviced by Laketran (maybe even by Laketran's point-to-point Dial-a-Ride service). This Euclid park 'n ride even could offer a paid garage with long-term parking for the airport. Currently, RTA could find large swaths of land for such a project in Euclid. This might not be true 10-20 years from now. Such a project could greatly improve mass transit access from the far east side to University Circle, Playhouse Square, Tower City (and Progressive Field and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse, West Side Market and the Airport), as the Stokes/Windermere transit hub offers both Healthline and Red Line service.
I wouldn't be against that subway idea. It's certainly an improvement. There are probably better improvements to be made though, especially dollar for dollar. For partially selfish reasons, I would hope they included access for the blue and green lines as well.
I do thing downtown would benefit a lot from multiple stops (as illustrated in that link, with the "5 minute walk circles"). Its' big enough that Tower City as the only stop really is an inconvenience and deterrent for some trips. If you combine this idea with restoring the Waterfront line, that would cover virtually all of downtown within reasonable walking distance of a rapid stop.
I wouldn't be against that subway idea. It's certainly an improvement. There are probably better improvements to be made though, especially dollar for dollar. For partially selfish reasons, I would hope they included access for the blue and green lines as well.
I do thing downtown would benefit a lot from multiple stops (as illustrated in that link, with the "5 minute walk circles"). Its' big enough that Tower City as the only stop really is an inconvenience and deterrent for some trips. If you combine this idea with restoring the Waterfront line, that would cover virtually all of downtown within reasonable walking distance of a rapid stop.
Honestly we need stops downtown. So naturally, they close the only stations we had at street level in the Flats. But stops more in the business district would be extremely helpful. Tower City is centrally located to everything and that's great, but it takes like 5 minutes just to get out of the complex and then you have to walk where you're going. 2-3 more stops downtown would be fantastic. I highly doubt this is going to happen though.
Tower City is centrally located to everything and that's great, but it takes like 5 minutes just to get out of the complex and then you have to walk where you're going.
TC is centrally located, but downtown is big enough that that can still mean 15 minute walks. And 20 when you include navigating TC itself as you correctly point out.
The proposal strikes me as similar to Pittsburgh's subway system. Just a few underground stops in a small area. Pittsburgh's downtown stops are quick to get in and out of though. You don't even have to stop to pay because of the downtown free fare zone. Incidentally, Pittsburgh is probably a city that actually could get by with one central mega stop like Tower City, with the downtown being more compact.
Personally, I think more important use of funds would be restoring trolley service downtown with late night hours to Playhouse Square and the East Flats. Personally, I wouldn't object if RTA began charging $1 for trolley rides.
Also I think a major priority should be extending 24/7 Healthline service to a park 'n ride station in Euclid, which hopefully also would be serviced by Laketran (maybe even by Laketran's point-to-point Dial-a-Ride service). This Euclid park 'n ride even could offer a paid garage with long-term parking for the airport. Currently, RTA could find large swaths of land for such a project in Euclid. This might not be true 10-20 years from now. Such a project could greatly improve mass transit access from the far east side to University Circle, Playhouse Square, Tower City (and Progressive Field and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse, West Side Market and the Airport), as the Stokes/Windermere transit hub offers both Healthline and Red Line service.
I'm against this even though I am very much for better mass transit. The Red Line goes clear from the Airport and the neighborhoods all the way from there through downtown to University Circle and East Cleveland and likely with a decent number of riders that neither originate nor have as a destination downtown. This proposed alteration of service does a huge number of curves and turns and with very short station spacing that because it arches so quickly north and then back south are actually pretty long in terms of tunnels, track length, and travel time. This makes for an incredibly inefficient system and *adds* trip time for most of the ridership while also being costlier to run and maintain. If they really want to do a subway portal split, then it'd be more effective to simply have a spur of the Red Line run as far and straight east on Prospect Avenue with those same funds rather than do this weird looping reconnection. It's not like the Red Line is running anywhere near its technical capacity anyhow.
I'm with you on just using the funds to restore trolley service downtown as well as upping service levels in general.
Ultimately, what I think would probably be best would be the Burke closes down mostly to serve as a parkspace but also with some development, the Shoreway made more into a Boulevard, the Amtrak station given more services and built as a tall-ish building with elevators with its roof as an extension of the Cleveland Mall over the tracks and so it's easy to get into downtown, the I-90 Inner Belt freeway removed (so no I-90 from lakeshore to at least Orange Street) and opened for redevelopment and the "Waterfront line" (get rid of this designation--it's just an extension of the Blue and Green lines) gets extended with branches going east along the lakeshore and the other one following the tracks that veer southeast after South Harbor Station and the aforementioned removed I-90's trenches that are modified and repurposed (and covered) to reconnect with the existing tracks for use as part of a loop operation (so now you have a greater downtown loop services and loop services are very efficient).
Separately, there should be another subway that goes Detroit Avenue then through downtown to under Euclid Avenue (maybe Superior Avenue or both with the shared part being downtown). That'd be a pretty good subway line.
I'm with you on just using the funds to restore trolley service downtown as well as upping service levels in general.
Ultimately, what I think would probably be best would be the Burke closes down mostly to serve as a parkspace but also with some development, the Shoreway made more into a Boulevard, the Amtrak station given more services and built as a tall-ish building with elevators with its roof as an extension of the Cleveland Mall over the tracks and so it's easy to get into downtown, the I-90 Inner Belt freeway removed (so no I-90 from lakeshore to at least Orange Street) and opened for redevelopment and the "Waterfront line" (get rid of this designation--it's just an extension of the Blue and Green lines) gets extended with branches going east along the lakeshore and the other one following the tracks that veer southeast after South Harbor Station and the aforementioned removed I-90's trenches that are modified and repurposed (and covered) to reconnect with the existing tracks for use as part of a loop operation (so now you have a greater downtown loop services and loop services are very efficient).
Honestly we need stops downtown. So naturally, they close the only stations we had at street level in the Flats. But stops more in the business district would be extremely helpful. Tower City is centrally located to everything and that's great, but it takes like 5 minutes just to get out of the complex and then you have to walk where you're going. 2-3 more stops downtown would be fantastic. I highly doubt this is going to happen though.
I don't find entering/exiting Tower City to be all that time-consuming -- at most 1 or 2 mins... certainly not 5. Most modern subway systems, like the DC Metro, Atlanta's MARTA, and SF's BART take just as long to exit TC, if not longer, as you must come up a short escalator, go through turnstiles, curl through a large mezzanine area of ticket vending machines then catch another escalator to the streets; and these escalators are often quite tall/long -- longer than TC's escalator and, remember, at Tower City, you only ride up/down once; you are only one 2 levels - track level and then the street. Some of DC's downtown stations are among the deepest in the world, like Dupont Circle where, if you're afraid of heights (as I am) it sometimes can be rather intimidating.
Plus, to me, the sheer grandeur of the old Union Station/Terminal Tower complex is awe-inspiring, esp the entrance portico off Public Square. It ranks among THE most beautiful mass rapid transit entrances in the nation (DC's Union Station (which you can bypass) and NYC's Grand Central Terminal, are others). There's a big-city excitement I feel passing through this room I've experienced since childhood. Often, if I'm not in a hurry, I will deliberately walk to the middle Public Square doors or those at the opposite end just to experience the awesomeness of the Portico; one of the top 5 or 10 most beautiful interior spaces in Cleveland -- and as we know, this city has lots of them.
One other note: Tower City had (and still has, if it's now open (it was closed during COVID) a very direct entrance onto Prospect Ave; the 'back door' to the Rapid I often would use rather than curling around to the front of the building. Coming from venues along East or West Prospect and Huron Road (including the Warehouse District), it is more direct to use the Prospect entrances (on both sides of the street). These entrances are directly over the Rapid tracks -- the only 'downside' is that you either have to catch 2 escalators, walk up or ride the elevator -- the last being the slowest, but none being overly slow.
Last edited by TheProf; 08-20-2022 at 07:48 AM..
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Red Line downtown "realignment"
