Public transportation (Cleveland, Lakewood, Elyria: live in, restaurants, buses)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If you want to travel solely by public transportation in the Cleveland area, you definitely have to choose an area where you can do that. I dont think there are many areas where you can accomplish that though. Also, you will probably need a car if you ever plan on traveling to the areas farther away from the city and outside of Cuyahoga County.
You can do pretty good without a car and rely mostly on public transporation in these places: Cleveland, East Cleveland, Lakewood, Shaker Heights, Euclid, Elyria, Lorain, Akron, and Canton. You can probably add most the inner ring suburbs too. Still, you should probably get a car in all those places also. Its not impossible to just use public transportation, but it will be difficult in most places.
Still, you should probably get a car in all those places also. Its not impossible to just use public transportation, but it will be difficult in most places.
Agreed. The problem with this type of discussion is that you will hear from people with fairly extreme points of view. You'll have anti-car fanatics on one side and big car-loving, PT-haters on the other. Truthfully, I think the truth is somewhere near the bottom of the middle It also depends on one's level of physical fitness, health, age etc...I mean, it's possible to live without a car anywhere. You could walk, bum rides, ride a bike, ride a horse, take a cab, a motorized scooter, a Bigwheel...but will it benefit you, save money and be a more efficient use of your time? Moral considerations aside, these are the questions most folks want to know.
RTA has always given me the impression that it's designed more for people who need it instead of wanting it. Kind of a limited and least common denominator mentality. And that's fine I suppose, but getting choice-riders is really the measure of a good public transportation system. If you can't afford a car or have lost driving privileges, than PT will be your only option and therefore, might seem very convenient.
I've lived on the East Side and the West Side and the only time it was ever really useful(by that I mean getting me to where I need to go cheaper and at least close to as fast as driving) was if I was going somewhere directly off the line. For example, the Rapid from Lakewood to downtown for a game/event/lunch, getting to CSU from Lakewood, or getting downtown from the Van Aken/Shaker area. While it does go to the Airport, it was always easier to have someone simply drop me off. Almost every other time I used RTA, it was either because my car was getting fixed or I just wanted to do it for the sake of doing it. Unless you are without a car(either by choice or not), it's usually not very convenient.
RTA has really blown off the southern suburbs. Why isn't there a RAPID running south through Independence, Brecksville, on its way towards Akron? That would open up all kinds of Park N' Rides for people in Twinsburg, Macedonia, Northfield, North Royalton, Richfield, Hudson.
I don't think anyone who has spent even a day in New York, SF, Chicago, Portland Or, Toronto or Montreal could reasonably state that Cleveland has "great" Public Transportation. It just doesn't. Is it better than most American cities? Yes, but that doesn't say much. Our heads have been up our *sses on this for the last 50 years. Is it possible to live without a car in Cleveland? Of course. Is it reasonably convenient for a wide spectrum of people? I don't think so. Unless you live in very specific areas, you will be wasting a lot of time transferring around to get where you need to be.
Im not really sure how the RTA was named the best in the USA either. We arent doing that bad though. Our public transportation in general is pretty good. The bus system is good in most places and we do have some taxis. As far as the rail lines they arent that bad, but they could definitely be more extensive. If you live anywhere more than 1 mile away from a rapid stop its pretty much useless most the time. However, I also agree we are doing a lot better than most places.
IMO, to be car free in Cleveland there are a lot of things that have to be achieved. 1st of all you should be close to a rapid stop or near a busy bus stop where the bus runs a lot. You should also be in pretty good shape and have a bike and be willing to walk places. And you should be in a denser urban area or an area with shopping close by. If all of those arent achieved you probably will need a car.
I think your transit view is a bit skewed. I mean, you note the rapid goes to the airport but you almost never use it... does that make Cleveland transit bad or simply that you don't like transit? Also, I don't see holding Portland on some high pedestal over Cleveland. As for rapid extensions to deep/direct south suburbs like Brecksville; there's a reason it doesn't go there: Brecksville and that area lack the population density to support it... That's not saying there are a number of places around town that could us rapid rail: Euclid, Parma, the SE, Broadway/I-271 corridor suburbs like Garfield, Bedford and Hudson...
I think one can go car free without terrible hassle in Cleveland, but you do have to pick your areas either in the City or close-in to middle ring suburbs. Downtown's esp easy: it's crisscrossed by bus and rail lines, where Public Sq's the focal point. If you want to go to Clevelnad State, you've got the cute free trolley's going every couple mins or if you want to hit nearby Ohio City (West Side Mke, Dave's Supermarket or Great Lakes Brewing Co. restaurant, to name a few), you can hop the Red Line rapid for a 2-3 min, 1-stop scenic ride over the Cuyahoga. And don't forget, the spanking new Health Line bus rapid transit is set to zip up Euclid with extra-long rapid-like buses picking up/discharging riders at more widely-spaced stations. Playhouse Sq, the Clinic and Midtown will be directly served.
As Cleveland discovers more TOD (transit oriented development which is high density residential, retail and commercial complexes near rail stations), there will be more of a diversity of places to go that are accessible to rail. 2 big TOD's are underway: the new Flats East Bank near the Waterfront Line and the relocationg of E. 120 to the front door of Little Italy on Mayfield, along with a bunch of apt and condo towers and a 3-block street-level retail district along Euclid Av.
And now 4th Street has that kind of New Yorkish feel about it, with heavy foot traffic, restaurants (w/ ample patios in warm weather), and high-density, close knit apartments and condos overhead, there are more people willing to ditch the car as they don't need the hassle or expense. And E. 4th is just 2 blocks from Tower City and the Rapid Hub... Also, our generally wide streets and moderate/low city density, means buses can move more freeling and quickly up and down major streets.
I think your transit view is a bit skewed. I mean, you note the rapid goes to the airport but you almost never use it... does that make Cleveland transit bad or simply that you don't like transit? Also, I don't see holding Portland on some high pedestal over Cleveland. As for rapid extensions to deep/direct south suburbs like Brecksville; there's a reason it doesn't go there: Brecksville and that area lack the population density to support it... That's not saying there are a number of places around town that could us rapid rail: Euclid, Parma, the SE, Broadway/I-271 corridor suburbs like Garfield, Bedford and Hudson...
I think one can go car free without terrible hassle in Cleveland, but you do have to pick your areas either in the City or close-in to middle ring suburbs. Downtown's esp easy: it's crisscrossed by bus and rail lines, where Public Sq's the focal point. If you want to go to Clevelnad State, you've got the cute free trolley's going every couple mins or if you want to hit nearby Ohio City (West Side Mke, Dave's Supermarket or Great Lakes Brewing Co. restaurant, to name a few), you can hop the Red Line rapid for a 2-3 min, 1-stop scenic ride over the Cuyahoga. And don't forget, the spanking new Health Line bus rapid transit is set to zip up Euclid with extra-long rapid-like buses picking up/discharging riders at more widely-spaced stations. Playhouse Sq, the Clinic and Midtown will be directly served.
As Cleveland discovers more TOD (transit oriented development which is high density residential, retail and commercial complexes near rail stations), there will be more of a diversity of places to go that are accessible to rail. 2 big TOD's are underway: the new Flats East Bank near the Waterfront Line and the relocationg of E. 120 to the front door of Little Italy on Mayfield, along with a bunch of apt and condo towers and a 3-block street-level retail district along Euclid Av.
And now 4th Street has that kind of New Yorkish feel about it, with heavy foot traffic, restaurants (w/ ample patios in warm weather), and high-density, close knit apartments and condos overhead, there are more people willing to ditch the car as they don't need the hassle or expense. And E. 4th is just 2 blocks from Tower City and the Rapid Hub... Also, our generally wide streets and moderate/low city density, means buses can move more freeling and quickly up and down major streets.
I'm not sure how anything I said could have inferred that I "don't like transit"? If it was up to me, Lakewood(and the other inner-ring suburbs) would create modern versions of their historic streetcar lines. I don't fall into the standard American demographic either as I am fit, can walk for miles, bike often and prefer public transportation for the mundane activities of everyday life. I find it liberating to not be responsible for operating heavy machinery while either: waking up, talking on my phone, eating, reading a book/newspaper, thinking, day-dreaming or sleeping.
Maybe I need to clarify. Speaking primarily on rail, my point about going to the Airport is based on the fact that where I lived in Lakewood(SW off of Madison near Hilliard), it was always easier and faster to drive or have someone drop me off than take the Rapid. As there is no Rapid stops actually in Lakewood, the closest for me were the stations at 117th or Triskett(basically the opposite direction of the Airport). While I could ride my bike or take a bus to one of these stations(and often did) - unless timed absolutely perfectly - it took more than twice as long for the same trip by car. So it wasn't really a viable option unless I had no other choice or simply wanted to do it.
My problem with RTA is that there has been very little adjustment and modification to the RAPID system as the populations have shifted to different parts of the city. With the exception of a few areas, the Rapid passes through some of the most undesirable neighborhoods of Cleveland, thereby missing the opportunity to be relevant for more than a small amount of choice riders, usually hard-core urbanists or folks who live near a station and need to go downtown. I used it regularly to go downtown from Lakewood during the day, but the last train left TC a little after midnight - even on weekends - which sort of undermined the desire to use it for a night out in the city.
My point being is that if you want to use public transportation regularly, you are quite limited to where you need to live. I'm an urban-type fella, so for me it was a little bit easier. But the reality is that for the past 50 years, the present, and the immediate future, Cleveland is primarily an "outer-ring" suburban town and the Rapid system, while a true gem in it's earlier days is woefully limiting to the majority of people living in NE Ohio. Even in Lakewood, I felt a lack of service and this was before RTA decided to ditch the Community Circulator When I was in Lakewood last month, the city was still trying to petition that boneheaded move. I think the Euclid Corridor will be very nice - although I'm not really a BRT fan and think it's a bit of a let down - and I hope the Flats project is successful but I still think RTA is middle-of-the-pack in what it can offer most citizens.
Oh, and as for the southern route, I mentioned Brecksville simply as a way-point. The real draw would be the Summit County suburbs(Macedonia, Twinsburg, Hudson etc...) where so many people have moved.
I have many friends that are car-less in Lakewood and most of them manage OK as far as getting around Lakewood. But getting to other areas can be a real hassle and it can take hours.
The great thing about Cleveland, is that much of the infrastructure for improving PT is already there(like you mentioned, wide streets). Here in Austin, they're trying to work it into a city that developed after the car was already prominent which can often be difficult and expensive. The difference is that here, they are trying to plan it around established and projected TODs, whereas in Cleveland, you already have the neighborhoods but the density is low due to urban flight and decay. Imagine if all of the neighborhoods between downtown and Lakewood along the Rapid line were desirable, safe, attractive and affordable to a wide variety of folks. Then, I think you would see more commerce along those routes which would make the area more attractive as a car-less community.
Sorry for anyone else who's bored with this discussion
I hope I didn't sound like this was an attack; my apologies if that was the case... I certainly didn't intend it to be. And maybe I misunderstood. We can disagree w/o being disagreeable...
I guess I just kind of feel that Clevelanders (not you) have traditionally found reasons to not use transit. One thing I agree and disagree with what you just said... On the East Side, it has been long know the old Van Sweringen route for the Red Line was out of the way and missed population/entertainment/employment centers along the Euclid corridor and, for over 1/2 century, we have unsuccessfully tried to correct it with subway and rail; but now we have the Health Line BRT coming on line -- not perfect, but much better than the old crowded slow-moving #6 bus... Thus the current Red Line does go through some very "undesirable" (your word) areas... but isn't that true of many transit lines in most cities? Look at Chicago's Green Lines to the east (Oak Park) and south (to near Hyde Park, far south and Englewood). Many of those inner areas are as bombed out as our East Side but like some East Side areas, like Fairfax, they are slowly coming back -- have you seen the gigantic County Juvenile Ct complex going up on Quincy & E. 93rd just a few blocks from the E. 105/Quincy rapid stop? While it's not the most attractive sounding place, it will be a huge employment center and is actually showing signs of boosting the area (along with, of course, the Clinic to the north).
Also, the West Side areas are not so nearly distressed as those along the Red, Blue & Green Lines on the East... In fact, the 1st Red Line stop at Ohio City, is in one of Cleveland's hottest RE and entertainment districts. Detroit-Shoreway is slowly coming back and has a number of yuppie-types living near W. 65th... Yes, the Red Line doesn't directly go into Lakewood. Hey Twange, all rail systems have some holes in them (the Chicago El really doesn't serve Lincoln Park all that well; totally missing its lakeshore and the Zoo)... New York's subway (or NJ's PATH) doesn't go the Meadowlands Sports Complex and although commuter rail and an automated rail system connect to rail hubs for Newark International Airport and JFK, respectively, busy LaGuardia still has no NYC subway or commuter rail service of any kind...
No, RTA isn't perfect, and I get frustrated -- certainly with the current RTA admin under Joe Calabrese -- with their seemingly anti rail extension mentality. But RTA stacks up pretty darn good –esp if you’re comparing Midwestern cities – for the ease of car-less movement around the city. My relatives live in Beachwood and when I visit town, I usually make one downtown swing for the afternoon (sometimes detouring to Ohio City or the North Coast area) and most times – as a NYC trained area resident – almost always ditch the car for the Blue or Green Line Rapid, and never have a care (one time we did hang out late a few summers ago and missed that last train – but made it home on the #14 bus up Kinsman – a slight wait, but really w/o a hitch)… Frankly, even compared to some East Coast (+ Chicago) city adventures, in like D.C. or Baltimore and even Philly, -- with their rail-to-bus transfer necessity, long walks, etc, I find Cleveland’s RTA at least comparable and often superior. And don’t forget, Cleveland’s downtown is so comfortably compact, you can walk everywhere anyway – and most of the aforementioned towns do NOT have anything like our Loops or (free!) trolley shuttles.
I see some of your points about RTA… I just think you may be a tad hard on it, that’s all…
"My problem with RTA is that there has been very little adjustment and modification to the RAPID system as the populations have shifted to different parts of the city…My point being is that if you want to use public transportation regularly, you are quite limited to where you need to live. ... But the reality is that for the past 50 years, the present, and the immediate future, Cleveland is primarily an "outer-ring" suburban town and the Rapid system, while a true gem in it's earlier days is woefully limiting to the majority of people living in NE Ohio."
Most cites, even older Eastern ones, have heavy out-migration to outer-ring suburbs. Boston has commuters living 30-40 miles away but that doesn’t negate the fact they have a great subway system. (in those outer Boston areas, they rely on cheaper-to-establish commuter rail (like LA has developed) and not extended rail to those outer-burbs; note that the longest Boston T subway/rapid line is comparable to the same length as our longest – the Hopkins Airport branch – about 12 miles from Public Sq; so length isn’t always the issue… Our rapid could and should be more extensive, in places, I agree… but Cleveland’s failure to a degree is in not appreciating the rail it has and in not developing neighborhoods (or not letting those served decline as we have)… Times – and high gas prices – have changed and that’s why Cleveland’s now in the midst of a mini-TOD frenzy at certain existing Rapid stops... When Cleveland neighborhoods are deteriorated-- like U. Circle, Ohio City and others were -- the Rapid suffers, but when the turn around, so too does the Rapid.
"Oh, and as for the southern route, I mentioned Brecksville simply as a way-point. The real draw would be the Summit County suburbs(Macedonia, Twinsburg, Hudson etc...) where so many people have moved."
Again, these areas are ripe for commuter rail over existing freight train tracks not (cost-prohibitive) rapid extensions.
"Sorry for anyone else who's bored with this discussion."
I don’t see why they should be, interesting points are being made.
I hope I didn't sound like this was an attack; my apologies if that was the case... I certainly didn't intend it to be. And maybe I misunderstood. We can disagree w/o being disagreeable...
Oh, not at all. Sorry if my retort sounded defensive I get fired up about Cleveland. I love this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
I see some of your points about RTA… I just think you may be a tad hard on it, that’s all…
You're probably right about that. I've just spent so much time being frustrated with RTA. When I first started college, I used to go to CSU from Solon. It was a 2-hour commute for about 23 miles and 2 transfers. That was in the late 80s and absolutely nothing has changed even though that town has practically doubled in population, not to mention Aurora and Twinsburg more than doubling. I'm born and raised Cleveland but fairly well-traveled, and one of my favorite things to do when traveling is to ride PT. It just seems so much easier in all of those other cities I mentioned previously. Of course this isn't scientific analysis but even so...
And you're right, for the Midwest(except Chicago), it's pretty good.
I was always under the impression that there were "political" reasons why LaGuardia never had a line..Anyway, here's an article about why it still doesn't have one:
[i]Again, these areas are ripe for commuter rail over existing freight train tracks not (cost-prohibitive) rapid extensions.
I like that idea a lot.
That's what they are doing here in Austin(first major line is 32 miles, opening later this year). The only problem here is that these mostly serve the outer burbs(getting into the city from outside not getting around in the city...sort of like Chicago) The central core - which is booming - really needs some reserved guideway light rail/street cars. They're having public meetings this week on three major streetcar lines in the city. We're hoping it goes through as it looks like a well thought out plan Most people want it, but like most of America, there are some who are change averse and unwilling to give up their personal commute space.
Just buy an old beater car for like $800. It sucks to front that money all at once, but it's worth it in the amount you'll spend for bus tickets/cabs. Gas shouldn't be so bad if you're only going twice a week.
miss melli is correct and TAKE IT FROM ME! I bought a $460 '90 Volvo which was worth every penny!!! unless you like terribly loud profanity and talk of 38-specials, which is heard on clveland RTA and all public transport.. sadly. and it is tolerated. Every one on their cellular phones, i have seen fights break out on RTA cleveland buses, someone brought snowballs on there and threw it at someone, hitting me with ice in the back of the head, uh, no.. public transport is way too dangerous and you are much better off with either AMTRAK or your OWN vehicle, in Ohio.
I have taken nice peaceful public transport in Austin TX with none of the above problems.. i have also been sworn at by complete strangers on cleveland RTA buses.. and was told it is so crowded because there are so many 'poor' people in Cleveland.. also seen 'people' in cleveland downtown run after the bus angrily banging on the window! what's goin on??? Akron has a connecting service you can get downtown cleveland on Superior Ave.
go to blogtalkradio.com/wendy-w
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It also depends on one's level of physical fitness, health, age etc...I mean, it's possible to live without a car anywhere. You could walk, bum rides, ride a bike, ride a horse, take a cab, a motorized scooter, a Bigwheel...but will it benefit you, save money and be a more efficient use of your time? Moral considerations aside, these are the questions most folks want to know.
If it was up to me, Lakewood(and the other inner-ring suburbs) would create modern versions of their historic streetcar lines. I don't fall into the standard American demographic either as I am fit, can walk for miles, bike often and prefer public transportation for the mundane activities of everyday life. I find it liberating to not be responsible for operating heavy machinery while either: waking up, talking on my phone, eating, reading a book/newspaper, thinking, day-dreaming or sleeping. 
When I was in Lakewood last month, the city was still trying to petition that boneheaded move. I think the Euclid Corridor will be very nice - although I'm not really a BRT fan and think it's a bit of a let down - and I hope the Flats project is successful but I still think RTA is middle-of-the-pack in what it can offer most citizens. 
