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It all depends on what you consider the Cleveland Metropolitan area.
You can slice it however you like... if you compare it apples to apples, Cleveland has one of the worst growth rates in the nation over the past decade. This is an indisputable fact.
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Conversely, Pittsburgh's identical RSA area has lost nearly 3.5%...and don't tell me it's because of the birth/death ratio. Pittsburgh is facing many of the same issues we are and is losing population for like reasons. However, nobody dumps on the 'ol Pitt nearly as much as they do on Cleveland. Why? Second-hand perceptions and ignorance, not fact.
Cleveland metro had a natural increase (births v deaths) of +44,622 and a net migration loss of -103,636.
Pittsburgh had a natural decrease of -26,369 and a net migration loss of -41,809.
These are FACTS straight from the Census Bureau, not second hand perceptions and/or ignorance as you claim.
I haven't read further, but you hit the nail on the head! One of the biggest things is FIX THE SCHOOLS! Until you do that, no middle class family is going to move to Cleveland no matter what you do, or what you put downtown! Cleveland also needs new leadership. Ohio in general could use a makeover in the political arena! Cleveland, and NE Ohio have great potential, and it would be nice to see us in this region finally maximize that potential! This region needs to work together to do what we can to make it better. Most suburbanites (I am one of them) could give a rat's a** what happens to Cleveland (not one of them)! They figure whatever happens to Cleveland is Cleveland's problem. What they fail to realize is that what happens to Cleveland, happens to the rest of the region. It is important that Cleveland as the major hub in NE Ohio remain strong. If not this region will die. Look at Youngstown! Smaller city yes, but we are heading in that direction unless we start making changes.
I firmly believe the only way to "fix the schools" is to move your family into them. Yeah, I know, I wouldn't put kids in Cleveland schools, either. But I think people need to realize the ugly truth: the schools are not just going to be "fixed," making them "safe" enough for middle-class families to use again. If Cleveland is ever to have "good" schools again, it will be because a significant number of people not on welfare start sending their kids to the public schools. Considering middle-class families are fleeing even good public school districts like Lakewood, Shaker, and Parma, I don't really have a shred of optimism here.
I've been here for 5 years and I have to admit that while it's not as bad as many seem to think, it's not that good either.
It's complete lunacy that there are miles of beaches that could be used to build up business, resorts, parks, whatever. Yes, there are some of those things already but it stand to use some improvement.
There's a weird E vs W side mentality here that I really don't get. Frankly, I don't care for anyone to explain it to me, so don't bother. It's not relevant. What IS relevant is the balkanization(?) of this place. I'm not sure what can be done about it, but this place would probably be a lot better if everyone started thinking about Cleveland and how it relates nationally. Instead, there's E vs W side. This Heights vs that Heights. Suburbs vs city (which is ubiquitious, but a lot of places seem to deal with it better). Why should I pay 2% of my income to Cleveland, and another 1.5% to Cleveland Heights (thanks for the 0.5% discount! >:P) when both of these places kind of suck (for the money)? Which brings me to...
Tax tax tax! Where the heck is all that money going? People are being taxed. Business is being taxed. Sales tax, property tax, etc etc. They're all pretty high compared to what you're getting back, I think. Not only are people fleeing Cleveland but I don't think businesses are too interested in staying around. Aging infrastructure, taxes on everything, bureaucratic insanity... As an aside, aren't the county commissioners being paid $45k/yr for a part-time job? I'd be surprised if any of them follow through and quit their dayjobs like they promised (you know, to better serve the people?).
Cleveland (and many surrounding areas) LOOK miserable! There are so many empty storefronts, and entire buildings. Some of the unoccupied buildings look like they were bombed out in a war! I realize getting rid of blight takes money, but it's probably money well-spent. Fix the sidewalks, try to fix the potholes a bit quicker, pick up the litter, etc. Get of rid of some of the graffiti (not all). Make the area look nice, too.
No, none of these things are going to happen overnight, even if 100% of the people wanted it to. Yes, this is an anonymous internet board so I may not know what I'm talking about.
Good luck solving Cleveland's problems through willful ignorance of its history.
You can slice it however you like... if you compare it apples to apples, Cleveland has one of the worst growth rates in the nation over the past decade. This is an indisputable fact.Cleveland metro had a natural increase (births v deaths) of +44,622 and a net migration loss of -103,636.
Pittsburgh had a natural decrease of -26,369 and a net migration loss of -41,809.
These are FACTS straight from the Census Bureau, not second hand perceptions and/or ignorance as you claim.
I never said our growth rate was good. I said the losses aren't that bad considering the economic hit we have taken in the manufacturing sector and are mostly within the complete metroplex. I also said that Pittsburgh shares our problems and that this is a good part of the reason that they have shed some population also. Read please.
Do some simple math on total losses:
-106,636 + 44,622 = -62,014
-41,809 - 26,369 = -68,178
Given that the GCMA is considerably larger than the GPMA, I would say that the problem in Pittsburgh is considerably worse. All the negative birth:death ratio means is that young people are leaving a lot faster than the old ones are and having their children elsewhere thus further compounding the problem. In the GCMA, some younger folks may be leaving. However, it is not at a rate that is diminishing the younger population.
BTW, the ignorance/perceptions I speak of are those singling out Cleveland when, in fact, there are other areas that are considerably worse...Pittsburgh included.
I firmly believe the only way to "fix the schools" is to move your family into them. Yeah, I know, I wouldn't put kids in Cleveland schools, either. But I think people need to realize the ugly truth: the schools are not just going to be "fixed," making them "safe" enough for middle-class families to use again. If Cleveland is ever to have "good" schools again, it will be because a significant number of people not on welfare start sending their kids to the public schools. Considering middle-class families are fleeing even good public school districts like Lakewood, Shaker, and Parma, I don't really have a shred of optimism here.
See, this is where the residents that are left need to take a stand in their respective neighborhoods against the crime, and the other BS! I know for a fact that my neighbors where I live would not put up with the crap that goes on in Cleveland. The power is in numbers! Stop letting the thugs take over, and do something to stop it!
See, this is where the residents that are left need to take a stand in their respective neighborhoods against the crime, and the other BS! I know for a fact that my neighbors where I live would not put up with the crap that goes on in Cleveland. The power is in numbers! Stop letting the thugs take over, and do something to stop it!
Given that the GCMA is considerably larger than the GPMA, I would say that the problem in Pittsburgh is considerably worse. All the negative birth:death ratio means is that young people are leaving a lot faster than the old ones are and having their children elsewhere thus further compounding the problem. In the GCMA, some younger folks may be leaving. However, it is not at a rate that is diminishing the younger population.
BTW, the ignorance/perceptions I speak of are those singling out Cleveland when, in fact, there are other areas that are considerably worse...Pittsburgh included.
But the outmigration numbers sitting right here in front of us show that people are moving out of Cleveland faster. Why would those fleeing be of childbearing age in Pittsburgh, but not in Cleveland? I can't think of a reason, can you? It seems highly implausible.
As for the greater number of births than deaths in Cleveland, I suspect that just means a lot of people on welfare are having babies, given that people on welfare have a higher birth rate than people who don't. If that's true (I don't have evidence that it is), that's not a good thing for Cleveland, either.
Statistical gymnastics in order to argue that Pittsburgh is "considerably worse" than Cleveland gets us absolutely nowhere, I think we can all agree on that.
I never said our growth rate was good. I said the losses aren't that bad considering the economic hit we have taken in the manufacturing sector and are mostly within the complete metroplex.
Here is what you said:
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Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector
Why let Drew Carey (a lousy comedian turned gameshow host who has lived 2000 miles away for the past 20 years) tell you half baked truths via the internet? Go experience it for yourself. There is a lot going on in the city despite the current economic climate. It's not depressing. As a matter of fact, it's a lot better than most people realize. Our problems are not unique among other US cities. And, for the most part, they're much less severe.
Do you really believe this after looking at the data?
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The City of Cleveland has been losing residents mainly to its own suburbs rather than to other metropolitan areas as many mistakenly believe.... Cuyahoga County has about 1.3 million people residing in it. This is down about 100k people from 1999. However, the increase in surrounding counties have more than made up for the loss.
This is false.
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We really aren't losing many people at all. There are many reasons people have left the county (some are reasonable, some aren't). Yet, they have not left the metropolitan area. You can blame some of it on the fact that this is one of the few metropolitan areas where it is actually possible to commute to work from 30 miles away without spending 2 hours each way in traffic.
You are blaming it on Cleveland's excellent freeway system? Seriously?
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Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector
It all depends on what you consider the Cleveland Metropolitan area. Believe it or not, there actually is an argument about that in some circles. This is mostly due to the identity crisis that smaller cities and their surrounding communities have. Like it or not, Cleveland IS the nuclear city in NE Ohio. If you count all accessible areas (basically those within an hour of the nuclear city by car) like Columbus does, there was actually a small net increase.
So let me get this straight... the Census Bureau is defining the Columbus metro area more broadly than Cleveland because of "an identity crisis" for smaller cities in Northeast Ohio? Then you are saying there is a small net increase? Which counties are you mixing and matching to come up with this increase?
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Conversely, Pittsburgh's identical RSA area has lost nearly 3.5%...and don't tell me it's because of the birth/death ratio.
I'm passing on the statistics, not conjecture. Both metros lost population at a rate faster than any metro other than New Orleans. Cleveland's is entirely due to outmigration, whereas Pittsburgh's is a mix of outmigration and birth:death rates.
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I also said that Pittsburgh shares our problems and that this is a good part of the reason that they have shed some population also. Read please.
Do some simple math on total losses:
-106,636 + 44,622 = -62,014
-41,809 - 26,369 = -68,178
Given that the GCMA is considerably larger than the GPMA, I would say that the problem in Pittsburgh is considerably worse.
The Pittsburgh MSA is larger than the Cleveland MSA. Cleveland had more than twice as many people leave the area despite being a slightly smaller metro area.
I realize that Cleveland becomes larger than Pittsburgh when you toss in Akron/Canton and other areas, but the outmigration patterns don't change.
Again, I understand your enthusiasm for Cleveland and I agree with you that it is vastly underrated in many ways. But I think you are simply in denial when you are claiming that it is actually growing and that other areas are doing far worse.
The schools are beyond repair. Black leaders have destroyed the schools to the point where no self respecting white person would ever send their kids there. Until a final solution is found for the undesirables, Cleveland will continue to get worse.
On the topic of the metro/MSA numbers, it's set up very unfairly for Cleveland.
If you check the list of the largest metro areas now you'll notice that Cincinnati has moved ahead of Cleveland. What you don't see is that Cincinnatis metro area covers over twice the land area than the Cleveland metro does. Cleveland doesn't even include a bordering county (Summit) which is ridiculous.
Cincinnati MSA: 15 counties; 4,465 sq miles
Cleveland MSA: 5 counties; 2,004 sq miles
Greater Cleveland is actually a much larger area of Northeast Ohio. If you used that large of an area you'll see that we aren't actually losing any population. The urban areas are though, there is much suburbanization going on and also people moving out of the urban areas for less dense areas in surrounding counties.
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