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OK first of all, I'm not a lawyer or a law student. I'm a graduate student in a different field that just happens to have a few good friends who went on to law school. I agree that the market for lawyers is dismal and getting worse due to the current economy, but my point was that you shouldn't tell people that no one should go to law school. It just sounded like a petty personal vendetta, like perhaps you yourself are an out-of-work lawyer who doesn't want any more competition? Speculation I know, but making a statement like that is pretty powerful to just bash anyone who wants to become a lawyer.
I agree that unless you graduate at the top of your class from one of the best schools in the country, your prospects are not great. It's all about connections and I guess the people I know who are going to law school have them. The friend I mentioned who is starting at Georgetown is one of the smartest guys I've ever met, comes from a very wealthy family in Manhattan and his dad has been a successful corporate lawyer his whole life. So I guess my view of it may be a bit skewed as the people I know who are going into law are the few who do have the resources to make it big. I agree that the number of prospective law students out there far outweigh the opportunities to make a decent living in that field, but there are some who can still do it and it isn't a completely lost cause.
This thread was originally supposed to be talking about getting a degree in Criminology, and for some reason a few ignorant people started talking about (and lumping it in with) criminal justice. They are completely different fields with very different career potential and it's unfortunate that the OP has gotten so much mixed and misguided advice by people who don't know the difference. The OP had stated "I'm really looking to work for a federal agency like the FBI, DEA, Marshals, CIA..but I'm also looking into Probation or Social Work as well" For that I believe Criminology to be a good route to go, but they'll need at least a Master's degree like previously stated.
OK first of all, I'm not a lawyer or a law student. I'm a graduate student in a different field that just happens to have a few good friends who went on to law school. I agree that the market for lawyers is dismal and getting worse due to the current economy, but my point was that you shouldn't tell people that no one should go to law school.
My position is not that no one should go to law school. What I'm saying is that people need to think about it very very carefully and make sure that they understand what they are getting into and for the right reasons.
I think that if someone really wants to be a lawyer and they can gain admission to a Top 10 law school, or they can go on a three year full-tuition scholarship and not have to worry about living expenses, or have a guaranteed job after graduation (Daddy owns the city's largest personal injury law firm), or they have some other compelling reason for why going would be worthwhile then it might not be a bad decision to go.
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It just sounded like a petty personal vendetta, like perhaps you yourself are an out-of-work lawyer who doesn't want any more competition?
That is partially true. I do have a vendetta. I also have a strong sense of justice and I like to alert people to injustices. I'm also not merely interested in the legal field, but in the value of higher education in general.
I think that our society is doing a tremendous injustice to its young people today and that higher education has essentially become a for-profit business that no longer serves the best interests of society or our economy. The damage done to our nation's economy is that when someone goes to college and is unable to use their education productively--when colleges produce an oversupply--it constitutes an economic waste of money, time, and human effort. What if all of that energy had been invested in infrastructure or building low-income housing or developing green energy?--I think our society would obtain a better return on investment than squandering our wealth on excess, unneeded higher education.
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Speculation I know, but making a statement like that is pretty powerful to just bash anyone who wants to become a lawyer.
How am I bashing anyone? I'm not bashing people! I'm giving them a warning and trying to encourage them to conduct due diligence before they saddle themselves with a lifetime of onerous student loan debt.
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I agree that unless you graduate at the top of your class from one of the best schools in the country, your prospects are not great. It's all about connections and I guess the people I know who are going to law school have them. The friend I mentioned who is starting at Georgetown is one of the smartest guys I've ever met, comes from a very wealthy family in Manhattan and his dad has been a successful corporate lawyer his whole life. So I guess my view of it may be a bit skewed as the people I know who are going into law are the few who do have the resources to make it big. I agree that the number of prospective law students out there far outweigh the opportunities to make a decent living in that field, but there are some who can still do it and it isn't a completely lost cause.
I agree with that. For some people such as your friend who can benefit from family connections it is a good thing to do. For others, such as someone from a humble working poor background who is the first person in the family to ever go to college who has just obtained admission to a Fourth or Third Tier Toilet (TTT) and who would not contemplate that the legal job market could be severely glutted, it could be disastrous.
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This thread was originally supposed to be talking about getting a degree in Criminology, and for some reason a few ignorant people started talking about (and lumping it in with) criminal justice. They are completely different fields with very different career potential and it's unfortunate that the OP has gotten so much mixed and misguided advice by people who don't know the difference. The OP had stated "I'm really looking to work for a federal agency like the FBI, DEA, Marshals, CIA..but I'm also looking into Probation or Social Work as well" For that I believe Criminology to be a good route to go, but they'll need at least a Master's degree like previously stated.
I chimed in to warn people about law school because if someone is contemplating criminology or criminal justice, it seems like they might also contemplate becoming a lawyer at some point. (If you really want to deal with criminal issues, one way to do it is to become a prosecutor or a defense attorney.)
OK first of all, I'm not a lawyer or a law student. I'm a graduate student in a different field that just happens to have a few good friends who went on to law school. I agree that the market for lawyers is dismal and getting worse due to the current economy, but my point was that you shouldn't tell people that no one should go to law school. It just sounded like a petty personal vendetta, like perhaps you yourself are an out-of-work lawyer who doesn't want any more competition? Speculation I know, but making a statement like that is pretty powerful to just bash anyone who wants to become a lawyer.
I agree that unless you graduate at the top of your class from one of the best schools in the country, your prospects are not great. It's all about connections and I guess the people I know who are going to law school have them. The friend I mentioned who is starting at Georgetown is one of the smartest guys I've ever met, comes from a very wealthy family in Manhattan and his dad has been a successful corporate lawyer his whole life. So I guess my view of it may be a bit skewed as the people I know who are going into law are the few who do have the resources to make it big. I agree that the number of prospective law students out there far outweigh the opportunities to make a decent living in that field, but there are some who can still do it and it isn't a completely lost cause.
This thread was originally supposed to be talking about getting a degree in Criminology, and for some reason a few ignorant people started talking about (and lumping it in with) criminal justice. They are completely different fields with very different career potential and it's unfortunate that the OP has gotten so much mixed and misguided advice by people who don't know the difference. The OP had stated "I'm really looking to work for a federal agency like the FBI, DEA, Marshals, CIA..but I'm also looking into Probation or Social Work as well" For that I believe Criminology to be a good route to go, but they'll need at least a Master's degree like previously stated.
For Social Work maybe, but not for federal law enforcement. Education beyond a Bachelor's is not going to be worth the investment in time and money for law enforcement. Experience (whether military, local law enforcement..etc) will trump advanced degrees when it comes to law enforcement hiring.
Experience (whether military, local law enforcement..etc) will trump advanced degrees when it comes to law enforcement hiring.
Well, it should. But it doesn't always. Not in federal law enforcement, at least. It depends on the agency. There are some bigger agencies who go through hiring "trends." They want accountants...then they want people with intel backgrounds...then they want something else.
It changes, and a lot of it depends on the political winds of the time. Congress says: "we'll give you X billion to fight financial crime..." And then the hunt is on for people with finance backgrounds. But since a lot of people in finance make a LOT more money than a special agent does, applicants are not all that plentiful. So the agency decides to go for what they see as the next best thing and go after the people with finance degrees..
And when they're in that "trend", and advanced degree in whatever they're looking for will often trump experience in the trenches. It's sad, but I've seen it happen.
We're on 3 pages now of discussing the "best" degree for federal law enforcement. Problem is, there isn't one. And trying to figure out what is "best" is part of using the magic 8-ball to unlock the secrets of federal law enforcement hiring. But you can't, because there ARE no 'secrets.' Just sooooo many different factors at work that no one person can figure it all out (I haven't yet; that's for sure).
My opinion: if you're a student and you want to work in this field, the best you can do is study what you enjoy and excel at it. The degree, itself, may not make you "stand out." But what you put into it certainly can. I've sat on hiring panels and a high GPA will almost always raise an eyebrow, even if it's in a discipline that an agency might not be seeking - to include criminal justice. Not to mention the fact that there are MANY of us sitting on these panels who have non-law enforcement-related and off-the-wall degrees that have ZERO to do with our jobs, already. Point being, we know how little it matters in the big scheme of things.
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]With regard to Heeha's post and his/her mention of who would you want to manage your investments. An accounting/finance major or someone who knows Jack S*** about finance. Actually, I would choose the later, because look at what the former has got America into, the biggest trouble in the history of the known world. I worked teaching ESL in S.E. Asia and our three most recent employees all have had masters or Ph.D.s. They proved pretty much useless and didn't last more that a few months. Degree holding means nothing, doing means everything. Having said that, I know there is value in a degree as a measure of commitment. Learning is one of the most enjoyable things one can do. There are many people teaching here with fake or life experience degrees. I Googled, ‘life experience degrees suck’. There are some informative YouTubes on the subject. I think that one of the cleverest things you can do is get a Good Fake Degree (one from and xxx.edu site) and move to Asia to teach. From there you can safely watch the demise of the western world. Don't doubt it, it will definitely come to pass and sooner than you might think. Best of luck.[/SIZE][/FONT]
hey heeha or whatever....why would i want to get a cj degree to work on wall street or to work at a damn bank?!?!?!!? that makes no sense...your tellin me that if i had a BS in CJ tand u didnt i wouldnt get hired at a FEDERAL OR LOCAL OR STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY before u?? now if u had a degree in accounting or buisness then u would get hired over me at a bank or wall street lets all use some common sence here get a cj degree to go in to the LE carrer field not to work at a bank!!! im just saying
hey heeha or whatever....why would i want to get a cj degree to work on wall street or to work at a damn bank?!?!?!!? that makes no sense...your tellin me that if i had a BS in CJ tand u didnt i wouldnt get hired at a FEDERAL OR LOCAL OR STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY before u?? now if u had a degree in accounting or buisness then u would get hired over me at a bank or wall street lets all use some common sence here get a cj degree to go in to the LE carrer field not to work at a bank!!! im just saying
Mike, the issue is simply this:
Regardless of what you major in outside of criminal justice, you'll meet the academic standards to be in law enforcement by simply having a degree. Therefore, it's almost pointless to corner yourself into a CJ major that will limit your options should you decide to look into another profession.
A lot of people go into college majoring in one thing and come out majoring in something else. And even once they get their first job, many end up switching careers for whatever reason. Ipersonally would not major in something at the UG level with the idea that that particular major is what I am going to be doing for life, because it usually doesn't turn out that way.
A BA/BS in Criminology/Criminal Justice/Admin of Justice/Pre-Law, etc is a GROSS waste of time, energy, and money.
Believe it or not, most criminal justice agencies do not really like CJ type degrees, with the exception of maybe the prison system or a victims advocate organization.
If you are looking to get hired on with agencies like the FBI, DEA, ATF, Secret Service,etc, it would be better for you to major in something like accounting, computer science, or foreign languages.
Today, most law enforcement agencies are faced with complex investigations that involve money and computers. A CJ or Criminology degree is not going to teach you how to look at financial records or how to analyze information on the hard drive of a PC.
Here are some another reasons why you shouldn't major in Criminology:
What are you going to do if you get injured while on the job and can't work in law enforcement, corrections, etc ever again? A Criminology degree has very little value outside the criminal justice field. How many Fortune 500 companies are in dire need for Criminology majors? NONE.
What happens if you can't get hired by a law enforcement agency or corrections agency? Many jobs in law enforcement require the use of a polygrah. If you can't pass the polygraph, you won't get hired.
You should stay away from Criminology type degrees. You should also stay away from sociology, psychology, political science, childlife and development, social work,etc. Most liberal arts majors are a waste of time and money.
You should either pick a major like accounting and strive to get your CPA or you should think about maybe learning a trade, not at a trade school, but at a community college.
Yes this is the truth!! I'm telling ya. They do not care about most liberal art/generic studies cause everyone has a that kind of degree. Get something useful language, comp sci, accounting, MIS, Chemistry(Doctorate etc). I learned the hard way. This life is all about who you know and then the skills you have. But you can know all the people in the world and have no skills- then what are good are ya.
Good Luck.
(Also, I don't know what faith you are but I try to leave people with this thought- Give Jesus a try.) If you want to know more just send me a message.
I think if you get any type of BA degree you must get your Masters. I agree to go to school for something you will enjoy and will excel.
I have a BA in Sociology and happy I got it. I'm not interested in being an Accountant or in Computer Science. If I would've taken these classes I would've done horribly in school and wasted money. I'm going back to get my MSW (Social Work) or MPH (Public Health) so my first degree works well with the second I am pursuing.
So all Liberal Arts degrees aren't a waste but nowadays you definetly need another to specialize.
Regardless of what you major in outside of criminal justice, you'll meet the academic standards to be in law enforcement by simply having a degree. Therefore, it's almost pointless to corner yourself into a CJ major that will limit your options should you decide to look into another profession.
It's not just that. All LE agencies have long formalized training programs for new officers, from the police academy to Quantico for the FBI.
The stuff you would learn in a CJ major is basically the stuff you would cover in the training programs, but having a CJ degree doesn't let you skip it. So it's just duplicative stuff you've spent a couple years at college doing, that's why LE agencies really don't care if a candidate was a CJ major or not. That's also why it seems the only places that like CJ majors are private security firms, because they have limited resources for training. But even then, they would prefer veteran LE officers.
But having a major in another field will give you additional skills that may help your law enforcement career. Even things like psychology, social work, management, computer science, communications, or political science may give you insights to further your career in LE. And if you later decide that LE isn't for you, you may have options in other fields.
As for criminology, I agree with prior posters that point out it is not CJ. It's not, it's a sub-field of sociology. So criminology is to CJ, as sociology is to social work. Anyways, I'm pretty sure your job prospects as a criminologist, outside of LE, is right up there with those for sociology (meaning hardly any except for social work).
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