Brillant High School Student- should he go to small private college or State University? (scores, class)

[The Outcast]

Some clarification is in order. The State School that is only two miles from the house is super easy to get into and as a result has a reputation as the place "C" students will go to. I suspect that a good percentage of them will attend classes in large lecture halls, never talk to their Professor and only a small percent will graduate. But it is so close and he could live at home. He could easily graduate without student loans because the costs are relatively low.

The private school he is thinking of going to has very tough standards and 90% of the students are in the top ten percent of their class. Also, most students who start as Freshmen will graduate and stay there for the whole four years. And most of the classes have 15 students with high Instructor and student interaction. But the costs are sky high and he will likely owe money at graduation.

[uptown_urbanist]

I agree with much of what's been said. Those grades and test scores are good, but they're not going to guarantee admission anywhere, either. (they're high, but not THAT high in the realm of competitive school admissions) Also, a public university, even the ones that don't have the top public reputations, can offer opportunities that a much smaller private school can't. It all depends on the circumstances and the programs. Some students do very well in a large setting (and I loved that my large public university allowed undergraduates to take graduate-level classes and receive research funding, among other benefits), while others prefer a smaller school. And also as others have said, there are large private schools. I'd encourage my child to look at a variety of types of schools and to apply to multiple options.

And K-Luv, I would disagree with you that a public school is going to mean that it's easy to be at the top; one of my old roommates really struggled with just that fact. A bigger student body is going to bring with it a lot of other people who were also at the top of their schools are who are used to being the "best"; even if the admissions standards are more lax and there are also more people who are coasting by, it's still going to be academically challenging and competitive at the top.

And to the OP: is he considering other options? I chose a (good) state university and graduated with some, but not many, loans, but some of the private schools actually offered me better student aid packages.

[socstudent]

Originally Posted by The Outcast

Some clarification is in order. The State School that is only two miles from the house is super easy to get into and as a result has a reputation as the place "C" students will go to. I suspect that a good percentage of them will attend classes in large lecture halls, never talk to their Professor and only a small percent will graduate. But it is so close and he could live at home. He could easily graduate without student loans because the costs are relatively low.

The private school he is thinking of going to has very tough standards and 90% of the students are in the top ten percent of their class. Also, most students who start as Freshmen will graduate and stay there for the whole four years. And most of the classes have 15 students with high Instructor and student interaction. But the costs are sky high and he will likely owe money at graduation.

From that description it sounds like the state school would be a nightmare. Sounds like low-quality education that will get him nowhere in life. With that kind of talent he needs to be going to a place that will challenge him and give him the resources to flourish academically and intellectually. If he goes to a place that is way below his ability level he will just be bored and lose interest, not to mention having a less valuable degree.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I agree with much of what's been said. Those grades and test scores are good, but they're not going to guarantee admission anywhere, either. (they're high, but not THAT high in the realm of competitive school admissions) Also, a public university, even the ones that don't have the top public reputations, can offer opportunities that a much smaller private school can't. It all depends on the circumstances and the programs. Some students do very well in a large setting (and I loved that my large public university allowed undergraduates to take graduate-level classes and receive research funding, among other benefits), while others prefer a smaller school. And also as others have said, there are large private schools. I'd encourage my child to look at a variety of types of schools and to apply to multiple options.

And K-Luv, I would disagree with you that a public school is going to mean that it's easy to be at the top; one of my old roommates really struggled with just that fact. A bigger student body is going to bring with it a lot of other people who were also at the top of their schools are who are used to being the "best"; even if the admissions standards are more lax and there are also more people who are coasting by, it's still going to be academically challenging and competitive at the top.

And to the OP: is he considering other options? I chose a (good) state university and graduated with some, but not many, loans, but some of the private schools actually offered me better student aid packages.

Very true. I know of two students, specifically, that both graduated top in their class from very good high schools, entered the U of MN IT and found out that they just weren't as good as they thought. They were still ok students, B's mostly, but it was a big eye opener to see some of those kids coming into the IT program that could do calculus in their head. There is bright and then there is BRIGHT.

[CMMom]

I think that some of it also depends on what he wants to do later. If he is at all interested in graduate/law/medical school, he needs a place where he will actually get to interact with professors and not just TA's. In order to get someone to write a personalized letter of recommendation, he needs the opportunity to do some research alongside professors. If the state school does not offer such opportunities, that would be a big negative. A lot of state schools do have Honors programs, though, that afford these opportunities, so it just depends.

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

And K-Luv, I would disagree with you that a public school is going to mean that it's easy to be at the top; one of my old roommates really struggled with just that fact. A bigger student body is going to bring with it a lot of other people who were also at the top of their schools are who are used to being the "best"; even if the admissions standards are more lax and there are also more people who are coasting by, it's still going to be academically challenging and competitive at the top.

Originally Posted by golfgal

Very true. I know of two students, specifically, that both graduated top in their class from very good high schools, entered the U of MN IT and found out that they just weren't as good as they thought. They were still ok students, B's mostly, but it was a big eye opener to see some of those kids coming into the IT program that could do calculus in their head. There is bright and then there is BRIGHT.

I doubt the validity of the OP. I am 100% positive that this subject was posted by another CD member last year. Other members of CD believe that the OP is the same poster as the one who posted the same scenario a year ago.

I think that it is BS. I don't believe that two separate uncles have nephews who are in the same situation a year apart.

My post was made in haste for the sake of contributing to the thread because top high school students do go to state colleges for a variety of reasons.

Anyways, even if a student is in a college prep program or attends a preparatory high school, college life is going to but the zap on their on their heads when they enter college. State school, elite, public, private, does not matter. If a student can't handle the change and responsibilities then that student is not going to do well at any college.

Another thing to keep in mind is that being in the top 2% at school A is not the same as being in the top 2% at school B. For example, being in the top 2% at Breck is going to hold more weight than being in the top 2% at Edina, and being in the top 2% at South is probably equal to being in the top 25% at Breck and 10% at Edina. It is not apples to apples.

My other comment is true. Even though that MIT and Harvard admit students with a lower than expected GPA, they do tend to admit the top students. Someone who was in the top 2% or 1% at their high school or in their district, city, state, region, are now just mediocre in comparison. This causes students to almost kill themselves trying to remain 'the best' and some students do kill themselves because they can't handle the pressure, or being average (MIT has a high rate of suicide amongst college students). Straight A and 'genius' high school students graduate MIT with a C average GPA all the time. It is not that uncommon.

Some students just can't handle, or want, the pressure and/or competition.

[uptown_urbanist]

My main point is mostly that it's important for students to not assume that they're going to have an easier time of it just because they go to a less selective state college or university. In some cases, it might be even a BIGGER adjustment issue, if you're not expecting the state school to be tough. Places like MIT are notorious for being pressure cookers of that sort, but the same dynamic can also play out at the state colleges. I certainly saw my roommate crash and burn. The same thing may well have happened if she'd gone to Harvard or another Ivy, but there she would have expected to be around lots of other top students, and would perhaps have been better prepared. (actually, my friends who went that route tend to comment on how their expectations that EVERYONE at the top schools would be brilliant was also not the case)

It sounds like we agree, though, that some students can't handle or don't want the competition, and if that's the case, then the school type itself isn't going to matter.

I saw the same thing happen in grad school, although to a lesser degree: some people were used to defining themselves as the unique one because of their academic success and esoteric academic interests, and suddenly they were one of a group of other people who were all doing variations of the same thing. If your whole identity is being "different" (defined in some cases as being the best student at a school) and suddenly you're not in that position anymore, it can come as a shock. Whether that's a good (more people who share my interests!) or a bad shock (I'm not unique!) depends on the individual.

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

My main point is mostly that it's important for students to not assume that they're going to have an easier time of it just because they go to a less selective state college or university. In some cases, it might be even a BIGGER adjustment issue, if you're not expecting the state school to be tough. Places like MIT are notorious for being pressure cookers of that sort, but the same dynamic can also play out at the state colleges. I certainly saw my roommate crash and burn. The same thing may well have happened if she'd gone to Harvard or another Ivy, but there she would have expected to be around lots of other top students, and would perhaps have been better prepared. (actually, my friends who went that route tend to comment on how their expectations that EVERYONE at the top schools would be brilliant was also not the case)

It sounds like we agree, though, that some students can't handle or don't want the competition, and if that's the case, then the school type itself isn't going to matter.

I saw the same thing happen in grad school, although to a lesser degree: some people were used to defining themselves as the unique one because of their academic success and esoteric academic interests, and suddenly they were one of a group of other people who were all doing variations of the same thing. If your whole identity is being "different" (defined in some cases as being the best student at a school) and suddenly you're not in that position anymore, it can come as a shock. Whether that's a good (more people who share my interests!) or a bad shock (I'm not unique!) depends on the individual.

I think that it all boils down to the individual student. A former GF of mine really wanted the Ivy League. She was prepped for it, and it was expected of her. She ended up attending a Tier 3 public university because she has a problem with not being the best, at the top, which is kind of ironic if you think about it. She graduated with a 4.0, in the top of her major, and in the top 5% of the entire graduating class. She is now in grad school. Her program is ranked one of the best in the country. I honestly don't think that she could have handled the rigors of an Ivy League school. She stresses out way to easily and would have crashed in her first year.

[Ceece]

Is he in a public or private high school? If it's public I don't see why public college would be a nightmare or any worse than his high school experience. In fact, being the shiznit in public high school doesn't necessarily translate into doing well at an "elite" university. If he goes to a competitive high school now, one that sends many graduates to the Ivy's and such, he is probably well prepared for that kind of university experience.

But so much depends on HIM. I've known kids who went the the most prestigous college they could get accepted to only to transfer out because they were homesick, missed their friends, couldn't adapt to the new environment, just weren't happy being a small fish in a big pond, etc. He will know what to do better than anyone.

[The Outcast]

He is on the top of his class now at a small elite privale High School where pretty much everyone is an brain and academically gifted.

Originally Posted by Ceece

Is he in a public or private high school? If it's public I don't see why public college would be a nightmare or any worse than his high school experience. In fact, being the shiznit in public high school doesn't necessarily translate into doing well at an "elite" university. If he goes to a competitive high school now, one that sends many graduates to the Ivy's and such, he is probably well prepared for that kind of university experience.

But so much depends on HIM. I've known kids who went the the most prestigous college they could get accepted to only to transfer out because they were homesick, missed their friends, couldn't adapt to the new environment, just weren't happy being a small fish in a big pond, etc. He will know what to do better than anyone.