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There are lots of firms with 200+ attorneys who throw first years right into it. Sink or swim.
Not really, and I'm speaking as someone that worked as an associate in BIGLAW up until a couple of years ago. A summer associate position is a fairly bad indicator of what life is like as an actual associate after law school, as you're wined and dined with dinners and social events. It's NOT like that in "real life". I got a decent amount of face time (or more accurately "conference call time") with clients on the corporate side, but there's absolutely no freaking way that litigation associates got anywhere near a courtroom for the first few years. Heck, the partners rarely got to a courtroom (since as others have mentioned, very little of what you do as a litigator involves being in a courtroom).
In fact, what BIGLAW is doing is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you've argued. They're finding that the lucrative clients that pay the bills actually don't mind paying the partners their high rates. (I happen to work for one of those clients now.) However, those clients are complaining LOUDLY about all of the hours being soaked up lower-level associates that don't have much experience, so those are the ones getting hammered in this recession. That's why associate classes at BIGLAW are a fraction of what they were in the pre-recession times and layoffs at the lower levels are rampant. The rainmakers are increasingly keeping their work while associates aren't getting hours anymore. (The only thing worse than having too many billable hours is having too few billable hours as a lawyer.)
I'm not saying BIGLAW is all bad. You get compensated well, they'll train you, and you have a "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" on your resume if you apply for other jobs (i.e. in-house counsel, higher-level government positions, etc.). However, if your *need* is to have actual trial experience, then the best place to go to is the state's attorney's office.
Not really, and I'm speaking as someone that worked as an associate in BIGLAW up until a couple of years ago. A summer associate position is a fairly bad indicator of what life is like as an actual associate after law school, as you're wined and dined with dinners and social events. It's NOT like that in "real life". I got a decent amount of face time (or more accurately "conference call time") with clients on the corporate side, but there's absolutely no freaking way that litigation associates got anywhere near a courtroom for the first few years. Heck, the partners rarely got to a courtroom (since as others have mentioned, very little of what you do as a litigator involves being in a courtroom).
In fact, what BIGLAW is doing is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you've argued. They're finding that the lucrative clients that pay the bills actually don't mind paying the partners their high rates. (I happen to work for one of those clients now.) However, those clients are complaining LOUDLY about all of the hours being soaked up lower-level associates that don't have much experience, so those are the ones getting hammered in this recession. That's why associate classes at BIGLAW are a fraction of what they were in the pre-recession times and layoffs at the lower levels are rampant. The rainmakers are increasingly keeping their work while associates aren't getting hours anymore. (The only thing worse than having too many billable hours is having too few billable hours as a lawyer.)
I'm not saying BIGLAW is all bad. You get compensated well, they'll train you, and you have a "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" on your resume if you apply for other jobs (i.e. in-house counsel, higher-level government positions, etc.). However, if your *need* is to have actual trial experience, then the best place to go to is the state's attorney's office.
I guess you missed the part where I specifically excluded Biglaw from doing that.
I guess you missed the part where I specifically excluded Biglaw from doing that.
I didn't miss the part where you said lots of firms with 200+ lawyers would throw first years "right in". Are you saying that a firm with over 200 lawyers is somehow not a large law firm?
Regardless, let's get back to the OP. Let me state that I'm actually a fairly happy lawyer. I have a job that I enjoy and live comfortably. However, speaking to the OP, you need to *truly* understand the financial ramifications of what you're thinking of doing. It's easy to say now that you'll never want a BIGLAW job and look to hang out your own shingle, but assuming that you need to take out a hefty amount of student loans, your outlook is going to change when you have $100,000 to $150,000 of debt that you need to make payments on. Add on top of the fact that the legal market is fundamentally changing as a mirror of the economy at-large, where there's a bunch of really high-paying legal jobs and a ton of low-paying attorney positions, but VERY little in between, going to law school is becoming a high risk proposition even if you go to a great school. I sense a lot of "looking at the best case scenario" from you, yet you need to understand how difficult it is even to find a small firm job in this economy (as they generally want experienced attorneys with a book of business) and how incredibly difficult it is to have your own firm. It also seems like you're under the impression that Riverside is almost like a small town, when it absolutely is NOT. You're competing in a very established legal market with lots of people that went to top tier law schools along with firms that have the resources to be in LA and Orange County on top of Riverside. Realistically, you're not getting any business on your own by being an average student in an average law school in that market.
Another thing about law school: your first year grades are ENORMOUSLY important. This is what determines things like whether you make law review and your interviews for a summer position after your second year. Even if you don't want a BIGLAW job (and once again, it's a whole lot easier to say you'll turn down a $150,000+ starting salary in favor of a $35,000/yr salary with the state's attorney's office or $0 in guaranteed income with your own firm when you don't have to make payments on six figures of debt yet), the top government and non-profit positions want the same academic credentials, too. The problem is that you don't get As for effort or class participation. Your grades will be entirely based on a single final exam for each class, all of which are graded on a curve that specifically limits the number of As that the professor can give out (and mandate a number of failing grades, too). I personally came out well in that process, but the thing is that I know that lots of people that worked just as hard as me didn't. It's not until I look back a few years later that I realize that the opportunities that I received compared to many of my classmates was shockingly and almost criminally random.
In a way, what scares me about your case is that it seems that you're NOT scared. I knew a lot of people in law school with your attitude ("We're all going to get jobs and be fine!"), but now they're in a financial sinkhole that they may never get out of. If you want to go to law school, you *have* to approach in a way where you know that there's no safety net (because unless you have a large trust fund to access, it's very much the case). You have to aim to be in the position to get a BIGLAW position, even if you eventually turn it down. Especially in this economy, there's no "backing in" to even one of those small firm jobs that you'd want to get (much less going out on your own). Those jobs are now going to people who were getting BIGLAW jobs in pre-recession times.
I'm not cynical about being a lawyer (as I truly enjoy being one ), but I'm very cynical about the prospects of people going to law school today because I've witnessed firsthand how the sausage is being made now with respect to hiring decisions. As more standard forms like wills can now be created online or shipped overseas, there's going to be even a tougher standard to get legal jobs that aren't of the highest value. Feel free to PM me if you have other questions. Just be VERY careful. Don't let your optimism blind you from what tens of thousands of recent law school graduates that are unemployed (and many of whom were just as optimistic going into law school) are going through right now. You need to look at it from a cold hard worst case scenario standpoint (NOT the best case scenario) and whether you can live with that financially (and yes, in this case, money matters a LOT with the amount you'll pay in tuition).
Last edited by Frank the Tank; 08-22-2011 at 07:06 PM..
I didn't miss the part where you said lots of firms with 200+ lawyers would throw first years "right in". Are you saying that a firm with over 200 lawyers is somehow not a large law firm?
Not at all. But "Biglaw" doesn't mean just the size of the firm. There are plenty of firms that are large but wouldn't necessarily be considered Biglaw. That typically means huge, national or multi-national firms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank
and mandate a number of failing grades, too
I agree with everything else you said but this. Most of the upper tier schools don't fail anyone.
Thank you Frank the Tank, your entire post was very helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank
In a way, what scares me about your case is that it seems that you're NOT scared.
I'm not scared because I'm just thinking about doing this - it's not even close to a sure thing! And I will only pursue it if it makes sense for me. I have a life and a career that I love, and while I am concerned about my future on my current path, I have no intention of jumping into something ever more risky - so I'm doing my research!
Bottom line, there's no point in being scared at this point. I'm just checking out my options.
Another thing about law school: your first year grades are ENORMOUSLY important. This is what determines things like whether you make law review and your interviews for a summer position after your second year. Even if you don't want a BIGLAW job (and once again, it's a whole lot easier to say you'll turn down a $150,000+ starting salary in favor of a $35,000/yr salary with the state's attorney's office or $0 in guaranteed income with your own firm when you don't have to make payments on six figures of debt yet), the top government and non-profit positions want the same academic credentials, too.
To be fair I agree with about 90% of what you say and agree that if you are of the big law or bust mentality going to law school is an enormous gamble if not a stupid idea. With that said I think you are a bit too pessimistic about the public/non-profit sectors potential. That $35K at the state attorney's office isn't so bad if you consider the benefit you get from 10 years and done repayment plan for public sector and non-profit employees, which allows you to have 100% of you remaining loan balance forgiven after 10 years of public service. Not to mention while some law students have six figure debt, a lot of us, myself included, have no where near that much.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 08-23-2011 at 08:46 AM..
To be fair I agree with about 90% of what you say and agree that if you are of the big law or bust mentality going to law school is an enormous gamble if not a stupid idea. With that said I think you are a bit too pessimistic about the public/non-profit sectors potential. That $35K at the state attorney's office isn't so bad if you consider the benefit you get from 10 years and done repayment plan for public sector and non-profit employees, which allows you to have 100% of you remaining loan balance forgiven after 10 years of public service. Not to mention while some law students have six figure debt, a lot of us, myself included, have no where near that much.
If you can get a position like that with loan forgiveness, then that's great. The issue, though, is that there's a massive pushdown effect right now in general. People that might have gone to BIGLAW 10 years ago (grads from top tier schools and the law review-types) are now taking those public/non-profit sector jobs because that's all that they can find in terms of employment. The "middle class" of law school grads that used to fill those public/non-profit sector jobs are having a hard time finding anything other than maybe temporary hourly contract work. That's what I mean by saying that even if you don't want a BIGLAW job, you have to position yourself in a way where you could legitimately get hired by BIGLAW (top school and grades) since even those public/non-profit sector jobs (at least those in major metro areas where people actually want to live) are requiring those upper tier credentials in this economy. I'm not saying that it's the case for everyone in every instance, but that's the general trend right now.
It's good that you don't have 6 figures of debt, by the way. I have just seen that it's becoming more and more common (as tuition and fees can easily be well above $50,000 per year).
If you can get a position like that with loan forgiveness, then that's great. The issue, though, is that there's a massive pushdown effect right now in general. People that might have gone to BIGLAW 10 years ago (grads from top tier schools and the law review-types) are now taking those public/non-profit sector jobs because that's all that they can find in terms of employment. The "middle class" of law school grads that used to fill those public/non-profit sector jobs are having a hard time finding anything other than maybe temporary hourly contract work. That's what I mean by saying that even if you don't want a BIGLAW job, you have to position yourself in a way where you could legitimately get hired by BIGLAW (top school and grades) since even those public/non-profit sector jobs (at least those in major metro areas where people actually want to live) are requiring those upper tier credentials in this economy. I'm not saying that it's the case for everyone in every instance, but that's the general trend right now.
It's good that you don't have 6 figures of debt, by the way. I have just seen that it's becoming more and more common (as tuition and fees can easily be well above $50,000 per year).
Yeah, I basically ruled out any law school that would charge me over 20K a year. I figured that would just be ridiculous. Another three points I have noticed is 1. As much as law review is important, knowing people who know your work product and having connections is far more important. That is how I have gotten almost everything. 2. Based on my observations I would wager that 90%+ of law students and probably just as many lawyers want to avoid working in rural areas like its the plague and by rural areas I don't mean suburbia like Riverside county I mean rural. As such there are a lot of job opportunities that are not targeted by a fair amount of people simply because of location. 3. While grades and law review do matter at to an extent for some of the public sector jobs far more important are your actual skills. From what I have seen you can be law review, top of your class etc., but if you lack superior court experience you straight up don't qualify for a lot of state positions.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 08-23-2011 at 09:19 AM..
Thank you Frank the Tank, your entire post was very helpful.
I'm not scared because I'm just thinking about doing this - it's not even close to a sure thing! And I will only pursue it if it makes sense for me. I have a life and a career that I love, and while I am concerned about my future on my current path, I have no intention of jumping into something ever more risky - so I'm doing my research!
Bottom line, there's no point in being scared at this point. I'm just checking out my options.
That's a good attitude to have. The law can be a rewarding career, but I've also seen a lot of people go into it without their eyes wide open (and those are the ones with regrets). Understanding what being a lawyer is really like day-to-day is a big thing, and on top of that, hanging out your own shingle requires you to be a business owner, too. I recall you asking why lawyers don't always want to go to trial. This is where you have to think like a business owner. Preparing for a trial costs a TON of time and money, and if you're working on a contingency basis, you're not seeing a single dime unless there's some type of positive outcome for your client at the end of it. So, would you put that outcome in the hands of a jury or judge, who may or may not come back in your client's favor, or are you going to push for an acceptable settlement with the other side and get you and your client paid immediately while also avoiding months of costs without any income? My best friend from law school was a national college speech champion who loves NOTHING more than public speaking and always envisioned himself wooing a jury, but even he came to understand quickly that being able to negotiate OUTSIDE of the courtroom is the single most important skill for a litigator.
Unless you can get a free education run away from law. Many students who graduated in the last several years can't find any jobs in the field.
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