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Actually a lot of people who go to law school have no intention of becoming an attorney. Many plan to go into business. Some already have MDs and pland to be doctors. Some plan for politics. One gal I went to school with planned to be a housewife. She just thought it would be good to have an understanding of law.
Many try out the practice and then do other things after trying it for while. One friend became a cartoonist. One is now a chef. Another a music composer. Another sells cars. None of them regret having gone to law school.
Not all law involves resolving conflicts and problems. Many lawyers provide guidance, negotiate agreements, help identify, measure and manage risks, assure compliance with regulations. Frequently, in house legal counsel become the CEO of companies. . . .
Don't kid yourself, people who go to law school with no intention of becoming an attorney are fools for enduring the pain it involves. It's not like going to get a liberal arts degree where what you learn makes you a more cultured person. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that many of these people discovered during their legal education, training, and experience that being a lawyer was not what makes them happy career-wise or a better opportunity developed.
As far as your comment re not all lawyering involves resolving conflicts, you don't get the big picture. Whether it's lobbying, risk management, compliance, etc, you are a problem solver and are expected to steer a desired outcome for your client. You get paid to improve your clients professional needs using your talent, analytical ability, persuasiveness, and resources. People will measure your worth ($$$) as a lawyer by your ability to meet your clients needs, whether they are corporate, institutional, or individuals.
Don't kid yourself, people who go to law school with no intention of becoming an attorney are fools for enduring the pain it involves. It's not like going to get a liberal arts degree where what you learn makes you a more cultured person. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that many of these people discovered during their legal education, training, and experience that being a lawyer was not what makes them happy career-wise or a better opportunity developed.
As far as your comment re not all lawyering involves resolving conflicts, you don't get the big picture. Whether it's lobbying, risk management, compliance, etc, you are a problem solver and are expected to steer a desired outcome for your client. You get paid to improve your clients professional needs using your talent, analytical ability, persuasiveness, and resources. People will measure your worth ($$$) as a lawyer by your ability to meet your clients needs, whether they are corporate, institutional, or individuals.
No. I meant what I said. At least 20 people in my class had no intention of ever practicing law. Many of them were going into politics, or were going to manage family companies. These people were no fools. In fact, I was the only person I ever met during law school who had an undergraduate GPA below 3.9. Many or most of them were geniuses. I would have to count, but it is likely that half of my class is no longer working as a lawyer. Most who are not lawyering are running businesses, but many are off into all kinds of varied pursuits. None who intended not to practice law ended up practicing law.
A legal education is very useful for running a business. It is also useful for managment of medical facilities. It is a pre-requisite to becomming an FBI or CIA agent for many people. the benefit to the gal who wanted to be a housewife - I am not certain.
I think I do get the big picture. At least I had better after 23 years of practice. You are simply incorrect. Not all lawyer work is problem solving. At least not by what I beleive to be a typical concept of "problem solving". On the other hand, you could define all work of any kind as problem solving. Manufacturing is solving the problem of someone who needs a product they do not have. Babysitting is solving the problem of someone who has no one to watch their children. Fishing is solving the problem of someone who wants to eat fish, but has none to eat. Writing a will provides a will for someone who has the problem of not having a will, but it is not conflict resoution. Drafting a joint venture agreement is not solving a problem except to the extent it is providing something the parties did not perviously have. Many people have the misconception that lawyers negotiate contracts. We do not usually. Most of the time we simply write down the terms that the parties negotiate between them and do our best to eliminate ambguity. We may negotiate the language of the contract, but rarely do we make any decisions on terms.
A legal education is very useful for running a business. It is also useful for managment of medical facilities.
You want to run businesses and hospitals? Get an MBA. I have both and know the difference between what each has to offer for their respective careers.
I agree that just drafting contracts as you describe it isn't problem solving, or advocacy for that matter. So I guess this is the part where I concede you are correct. Your point is well taken, not all lawyers are problem solvers.
Turning 27 in a couple of months. Earned my Bachelors in Social Sciences in 2007. I've flirted with law school off and on since 2010 but the average debt for CA law schools even the tier 3's and 4's looks to be around 125k! Including interest, that's going to take forever to pay off. More importantly, it will cost me at least 160k and that's me being modest with interest.
I'd like to get into civil law, I have work experience with lawsuits and I think I'd do quite well but the amount of debt is ungodly. I can't justify spending the time and effort to become a lawyer then spend that much money or am I coping out?
I think only you can determine whether it's worth going to law school and becoming a lawyer. I would be skeptical of anyone who tells you not to go. A legal education is a dynamic, stimulating, enriching, empowering experience. It has enormous intrinsic benefits that transcend the price tag. No degree can guarantee you a well-paying job. A law degree can only expand your horizons so that you have a higher vantage point in which to see a wider variety of opportunities, opportunities which you are then qualified to pursue.
I'm so sick of hearing these stories about people who went to Columbia Law, only to strike out finding a job, or someone who graduated from a "tier 1" and couldn't find a job and went into sales. Who the hell knows the full stories on these people? Being admitted to and graduating from a "top tier" doesn't guarantee that the person is someone who everyone wants to hire. They could be immature, or be lousy interviewers. Maybe they have no depth or class, or seem like spoiled brats. Maybe all they focus on in every interview they go on is how much they're going to make. Who knows?
It's also no wonder that many graduates can't find work. They're a dime a dozen. They all want to get into a "top tier." Once there, they all want to be at the top of their class, be on law review, and clerk for some judge. Then they all want to work for a handful of big name law firms. Then they all want to be put on the partnership track, so on and so forth. It's no wonder that this mass of commoners, vying for the same path, have a rough go of it. Don't be sucked in by this stupid narrative. You would be proud that you are a lawyer and a member of a noble profession. What you do with it depends on you and only you know what this is and what level of resolve and perseverance you have to make it work for you.
Strive to be "one of few, not one of many." If you can envison a scenario where you combine the uniqueness of your background with a law degree and produce a version of yourself that is "one of few", then by all means, pursue the law degree. If you enter law trying to follow the path of everyone else, then you will be "one of many", and will suffer the indignities and hardships that accompany that path just like everyone else who follows the herd.
I think only you can determine whether it's worth going to law school and becoming a lawyer. I would be skeptical of anyone who tells you not to go. A legal education is a dynamic, stimulating, enriching, empowering experience. It has enormous intrinsic benefits that transcend the price tag. No degree can guarantee you a well-paying job. A law degree can only expand your horizons so that you have a higher vantage point in which to see a wider variety of opportunities, opportunities which you are then qualified to pursue.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Flirting on and off is the OP's own words regarding how much he wants to be an attorney. Not only will it cost him about 130,000 bucks, it will cost him 3 years, and the lost income from his current degree.
I would say there are pretty significant risks to pursuing a law degree these days that really should not be under estimated. I know it's nice to think of a law degree being an enriching and empowering experience (I'm not too sure about that), but...
I suppose the questions you need to ask yourself are if you're okay with putting your life and career on hold for 3 years, spending 130,000 dollars, losing 3 years of income, and in return you have to accept that the odds are pretty good that you won't actually increase your income, and you may not get to practice the kind of law you want (or any law at all).
I know plenty of people who got law degrees, and never managed to do anything with them, so you have to be very sure this is what you want, because if it isn't, there are many other avenues you can pursue to improve your career and income that don't come with the associated risks of a law degree.
My son got his law degree 5 years ago and has yet to settle in ANYWHERE - the jobs are few and far between. He has most recently been working as a law firm administrator...for more money than as an attorney, but less use of the law degree! His debt is approx. $150K. Graduated magna from a top tier. He thought he wanted to be a trial lawyer. He was wrong - the hours required to do that job well totally take over your life. Saving graces? If you can get a government or nonprofit job you can get rid of that law school debt in 10 years rather than paying on it until you hit the funeral home doors.
His advice he wishes someone had told him is CONTRACTS. Everything is a contract. And Wills and Estates is huge too. He also says if he'd known how tough it would be to find what he was looking for he'd have gone into IT. Seems if you're in IT you can pretty much go anywhere and locate a great job quickly.
Just incidentally - the CA bar is supposed to be wicked...wicked. Network, network, network - you will need your contacts when you get out of school.
Flirting on and off is the OP's own words regarding how much he wants to be an attorney. Not only will it cost him about 130,000 bucks, it will cost him 3 years, and the lost income from his current degree.
I would say there are pretty significant risks to pursuing a law degree these days that really should not be under estimated. I know it's nice to think of a law degree being an enriching and empowering experience (I'm not too sure about that), but...
I suppose the questions you need to ask yourself are if you're okay with putting your life and career on hold for 3 years, spending 130,000 dollars, losing 3 years of income, and in return you have to accept that the odds are pretty good that you won't actually increase your income, and you may not get to practice the kind of law you want (or any law at all).
I know plenty of people who got law degrees, and never managed to do anything with them, so you have to be very sure this is what you want, because if it isn't, there are many other avenues you can pursue to improve your career and income that don't come with the associated risks of a law degree.
While I agree with this, I do have an extreme caveat. It really depends on what law school you go to. I don't plan on being a traditional lawyer. I interned at a big NYC corporate law firm last summer, and I can't see myself doing that. This summer I'm working in a foreign country and I hope to parlay my law degree into a PMF position in policy at the state department. There are many doors that a law degree opens for you that wouldn't be opened for you otherwise. For instance you want to do consulting, you could go to business school or you could just go to law school and have about as good of a chance to get with one of the big three (depending on the law school a better chance) and you'd be valued for your analytically skills. I have three friends who will be working at McKinsey next year and two more who will be at Bain. A J.D. from a top ten school can have you working various fields including finance, compliance, arbitration, mediation, politics, and a ton of other things. What does the commission of the NBA, Gandhi, the founder of California Pizza Kitchen, Washington State Men's football coach, Comedian John Cleese, and the U.S. Secretary of State have in common? They all have J.D.'s. The reason I agree with the above poster is that these jobs are very rare if you don't go to a top school and are none existent at some of the lower ranked schools. I pretty much told myself if I didn't get into a top 10-15 school then I wasn't going to law school. After the top 20ish schools employment prospects drop off considerably and your opportunities become extremely limited. Take a California school like UC Davis. Good law last time I checked I think they were ranked in the 30's, but if you're trying to get a major consulting firm from there, it is nearly impossible. It is also extremely hard to even get a market paying big law job and UC Davis is a tier one school. I heard you mentioned Cali tier 3 and 4 schools (I'm assuming you mean schools like Thomas Jefferson and not schools like Monterey or People's law which aren't even ABA accredited) these schools are debt traps where maybe a person here or there gets a job where they can pay off the massive debt that they incur but for the most part people leave there just as unemployed as they walked in. Thomas Jefferson is currently being sued along with multiple other law schools for misleading job statistics. I would never discourage anyone from pursuing their dream but please research the risk associated with these schools before you plop down 200K. Also don't be fooled by the scholarships. Most of them include ridiculous stipulations that are extremely difficult to maintain and then you're right back where you started at. This is a common trick with lower ranked schools. If they offer you a scholarship try to negotiate the stipulations away.
I think only you can determine whether it's worth going to law school and becoming a lawyer. I would be skeptical of anyone who tells you not to go. A legal education is a dynamic, stimulating, enriching, empowering experience. It has enormous intrinsic benefits that transcend the price tag. No degree can guarantee you a well-paying job. A law degree can only expand your horizons so that you have a higher vantage point in which to see a wider variety of opportunities, opportunities which you are then qualified to pursue.
I'm so sick of hearing these stories about people who went to Columbia Law, only to strike out finding a job, or someone who graduated from a "tier 1" and couldn't find a job and went into sales. Who the hell knows the full stories on these people? Being admitted to and graduating from a "top tier" doesn't guarantee that the person is someone who everyone wants to hire. They could be immature, or be lousy interviewers. Maybe they have no depth or class, or seem like spoiled brats. Maybe all they focus on in every interview they go on is how much they're going to make. Who knows?
It's also no wonder that many graduates can't find work. They're a dime a dozen. They all want to get into a "top tier." Once there, they all want to be at the top of their class, be on law review, and clerk for some judge. Then they all want to work for a handful of big name law firms. Then they all want to be put on the partnership track, so on and so forth. It's no wonder that this mass of commoners, vying for the same path, have a rough go of it. Don't be sucked in by this stupid narrative. You would be proud that you are a lawyer and a member of a noble profession. What you do with it depends on you and only you know what this is and what level of resolve and perseverance you have to make it work for you.
Strive to be "one of few, not one of many." If you can envison a scenario where you combine the uniqueness of your background with a law degree and produce a version of yourself that is "one of few", then by all means, pursue the law degree. If you enter law trying to follow the path of everyone else, then you will be "one of many", and will suffer the indignities and hardships that accompany that path just like everyone else who follows the herd.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Not sure I follow. Many people at my school want to be corporate lawyers. I don't think that anything is wrong with it but it's not for me. And depending on the school you attend you don't have to be on law review or anywhere close to it to get a corporate law firm job paying 160k plus bonus your first year. Those jobs are the easy ones to get. The hard ones to get are the state department jobs where they only hire 6 a year in the office of the general counsel or trying to get into DOJ. I don't think a person who gets into medicine to be a surgeon is following the herd just like I don't think a lawyer who gets into law because they want to practice on the biggest most complex M&A deals is following the herd. Everybody has their own goals and the person who chooses to work at Cravath isn't necessarily a lemming and the person who decides to work at the ACLU isn't necessarily a saint. The only thing I say is that if you know you want a corporate law firm job try to get into a school that makes that a realistic goal. Don't go to Pepperdine and think you you're going to work at Susman because it's most likely not going to happen.
That is actually liberalizing a bit many school are starting not particularly care about a single retest, but any more then that and it starts raising eyebrows.
Not sure if this is true. I took it three times and truthfully I think that they just want a high number to report to USA News and world report for the rankings.
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Seems if you're in IT you can pretty much go anywhere and locate a great job quickly. 
