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I'm not against college, but it is a huge investment in time and money and -- as with any other large investment -- people shouldn't just fall for the salesman's pitch without doing some serious research.
Let's look at the salesman's pitch:
1) By going to college, you will become educated.
2) By going to college, you will become employable at a high level.
3) College is a good investment overall.
Let's look at number one. What does it mean to be "educated"? To me, an educated person is someone who loves to read good books covering subjects that include literature, history and philosophy. Reading such books is not something one does for a short time, but over one's lifetime. An educated person is someone with the ability to educate himself. An educated person is someone who is interested in ideas, the arts, history, geography, and the whole range of human knowledge and accomplishment. That interest enriches his life because he will never be bored -- or boring. Last but not least, an educated person thinks for himself and is not swept away by fads, majority opinion or the pressure to be "politically correct."
Do you have to go to college to be an educated person? Not at all! That should be self-evident.
Will going to college automatically turn you into an educated person? No. That, too, should be obvious.
So when it comes to education, colleges do not offer anything you cannot find on your own, and they might actually waste your time by directing you into paths and curricula that are, shall we say, light weight, while giving you a false sense of your own intellectual accomplishment.
If your primary goal in going to college is to become educated, make sure that you are going to a college that truly assists you in that goal. I think most colleges fall short in this regard.
Now let's look at number two. Do colleges make you more employable at a high level? Not necessarily. First, you have to consider the number of high level positions that society can accomodate in relation to the number of people who are qualified for those positions. Not that long ago, only a small percentage of the population had a bachelors degree or above. A much larger percentage have bachelors degrees now, so the value of a degree for getting a high level position has gone down. Furthermore, colleges have made no real attempt to match their curricula to the job market or to the requirements of the professions. And maybe they shouldn't have to. Corporations might be well-advised to do most of the specialized training themselves. In any case, it is no wonder that students with newly minted degrees find the job market so confusing. At the very least, the college should offer internships that connect the college experience to the job experience.
So if your primary goal in going to college is to enter a profession or a high level career, you need to do some serious research on the path that will lead you from your degree to your career. You can't just rely on glowing reports from the colleges about how well their graduates are doing.
3) Is college a good investment overall? If it is, the return on investment is decreasing rapidly as college costs skyrocket far beyond the rate of inflation. There will come a time -- if we are not there already -- where college is no longer a good investment if those costs keep going up. I would note that -- as with everything else the government gets involved in (health care, housing, college) -- government support is the main reason that costs escalate. When colleges know that government will finance students through loans and grants, they lose the incentive to lower costs while maintaining quality.
So to save on costs, it might be a good idea to spend the first two years at a community college.
One last point -- the obsession with "big name" schools.
Which is better: being a small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small pond?
If you go to a lesser known and smaller school, you will have more leadership opportunities and more opportunities to participate in a range of extracurricular activities. You are also more likely to have close relations with professors (instead of graduate student teaching assistants), to meet people, to make connections and to learn how to be effective in social situations.
If you go to a more prestigious and larger school, you will have fewer leadership opportunities and fewer opportunities to participate in extra-curricular activities (e.g. more competition for spots in the school orchestra or on the school baseball team.) You are also less likely to have close relations with your professors (important when it comes to grad school recommendations), to meet people, to make connections, and to learn how to be effective in social situations.
The Big U might have a slew of Nobel prizewinners, but they probably won't be teaching any of your classes and you wouldn't understand them if they taught you at their level anyway.
And believe it or not, leading graduate programs do draw from smaller, less-well-known colleges.
I am pointing all of this out because it is something that students won't find in the standard college sales pitch.
Yet no one who comes from an affluent family is ever given this advice (go to a community college to save money for two years). If you do go to a community college you are not guaranteed a transfer to a notable school.
Look at our major politicians. If they didn't have major universities on their resumes, would they be where they are today?
No.
Does having a degree make your more employable? Yes.
But working class people (read poor, uneducated people) will often expect their children to immediately be able to almost magically secure a good job right out of college with a bachelors degree. This will never happen.
Even many engineers I know have had INTERNSHIPS and often end up getting masters degrees in engineering. If one is interested in the humanities, you will need to go to grad school. If you are interested in teaching k-12, in addition to a masters degree you'll need to be licensed as a teacher.
Now just as not everyone is going to be a basketball player or a singer not everyone is going to be good at good academic work. So if you really don't like to study or unable to do so college is a waste of your time.
If you do go to a community college you are not guaranteed a transfer to a notable school.
What a coincidence! Coming out of high school, you're also not guaranteed entrance into a "notable" school. In other words: You're never "guaranteed" entrance into a notable school.
I'm not a hunter and you won't find me on the gun forum. I'm not religious so I don't stalk the the various religion forums. I don't care about women's fashion so I have nothing to add to fashion and beauty.
What's the deal here?
I think many who when to college and lived entirely off student loans then got less than medium income job do so because its really about decision they made. Student loans are like any credit; some use them wisely; others foolishly. Got to blame someone else is common with any bad choice now days.
I'm not a hunter and you won't find me on the gun forum. I'm not religious so I don't stalk the the various religion forums. I don't care about women's fashion so I have nothing to add to fashion and beauty.
What's the deal here?
I think there's a few reasons for this.
First, there are some disappointed and embittered students:
They think they're entitled to a first class job when they've put in very little work in their four years of undergraduate school. They're embittered because somebody doesn't trip them as they're coming home from a night out and offer them a great job at a six figure salary.
Some individuals want to live in popular metros or in their home towns and refuse to look elsewhere even though job prospects for their field in their favored locale(s) are crappy.
Other students apparently are socially inept and never bothered to improve their social skills while in college, expecting society to make allowances for them. After all, mom and dad and all their teachers did.
Then there are the individuals who are angry because they can't go from schlepping through HS to working at some mindless assembly line job that pays them big $$$ and plenty of benies like their grandpas and dads allegedly got.
Finally there are the anti-intellectuals, the old idiots, and the political conservatives, primarily white men, who live in a fantasy world where everything today is a conspiracy against "the common man" and "the blue collar worker", and where things were so much better in the "good old days" when as much as 60 to 70% of the population was effectively barred from competing with white males for the "best" jobs.
I'm not a hunter and you won't find me on the gun forum. I'm not religious so I don't stalk the the various religion forums. I don't care about women's fashion so I have nothing to add to fashion and beauty.
What's the deal here?
Very good point.
I enjoyed college (over 25 years ago!) and you all should too.
Only bitterness I see is from people who thought it was some guarantee of something.
But a lot of these kind of people think that they get an A for participation.
You're right. It isn't a trade school. Don't expect a job from it. However, if you don't get at least a four year degree, expect a petty difficult life.
There are posts here every day that come from anto education people and some people who might be paid bloggers.
First, there are some disappointed and embittered students:
They think they're entitled to a first class job when they've put in very little work in their four years of undergraduate school. They're embittered because somebody doesn't trip them as they're coming home from a night out and offer them a great job at a six figure salary.
Some individuals want to live in popular metros or in their home towns and refuse to look elsewhere even though job prospects for their field in their favored locale(s) are crappy.
Other students apparently are socially inept and never bothered to improve their social skills while in college, expecting society to make allowances for them. After all, mom and dad and all their teachers did.
Then there are the individuals who are angry because they can't go from schlepping through HS to working at some mindless assembly line job that pays them big $$$ and plenty of benies like their grandpas and dads allegedly got.
Finally there are the anti-intellectuals, the old idiots, and the political conservatives, primarily white men, who live in a fantasy world where everything today is a conspiracy against "the common man" and "the blue collar worker", and where things were so much better in the "good old days" when as much as 60 to 70% of the population was effectively barred from competing with white males for the "best" jobs.
Many of your posts tend to sound bitter. Why don't you put your passion behind something that you love and believe in - rather than something you mistrust and dislike?
I've often wondered if you were a paid right wing blogger. I still do.
I have two college students. Neither of them feel entitled to anything but a good education. They will avail themselves of internships, study abroad opportunities, honing their writing skills and meeting people from backgrounds that differ from their own. They don't expect to earn 50K upon graduation. They expect to attend graduate school.
My son will graduate from an undergraduate college that requires a thesis and a defense from outside independent examiners. He's already a better writer than I was or am.
There is so much hatred towards millenials - hatred that stems from jealousy.
You're right. It isn't a trade school. Don't expect a job from it. However, if you don't get at least a four year degree, expect a petty difficult life.
There are posts here every day that come from anto education people and some people who might be paid bloggers.
Probably the same crowd that troll the relationships forum to talk about what's wrong with anybody who desires to be in/is happy in a relationship.
There are simply those who are on a campaign to discredit anybody who has benefited from a college education, probably because railing that "that's not the norm!!!" makes them feel better about NOT being among the group that has benefited from a college education.
At its most distilled, because misery loves company. They want other people to say, "You know, you're so right!"
It's fitting this type of question was asked in the education forum. Too many industries of various types often fail to be open to all types of input. And education itself - supposedly the one to be most open to hearing all sides of an issue or opinion - seems often the least willing to think outside the box the 'institutionalized' educators / administrators have themselves created.
To the OP: As for CD forums and their participants, you may be falling into the echo chamber effect - only agreeable reinforcement being sought. Many don't want to be forced to think outside their self constructed 'box'. You will see this on many internet forums / message boards. I don't recall seeing non-college educated bashing college educated. I do see those questioning college education value from a cost benefit analysis / work employment basis, i.e. the indentured debt servitude model: paying an exorbitant amount for a skill set that you may not break even from (if you gain employment) until you are near 50 or older.
On one hand, there is obvious trolling type disagreement for the sake of inciting others. On this type of behavior I agree with the gist of what OP is saying, in that, there are some who seemingly only participate to incite vehement disagreement and ruminate (flame / troll).
On the other hand I like it when someone can voice a cogent reason for not agreeing with the industry / establishment / court historian type line. So someone who doesn't seem to have a 'approved' background or natural disagreement can be welcome when done in a civil respectful manner.
Just because someone may not be fully vetted/accepted/experienced within a industry shouldn't preclude input and ideas. When those within a group/industry only think their 'type' of solutions will work, it is reminiscent of Einstein's famous quote regarding insanity: it is doing the same thing (in this case an insular preconceived thought process) over and over and expecting a different result.
A good example is throwing more money at the current institutional primary / secondary public education system, rather than looking at the other variables: prenatal care, lack of parenting / guardianship, babies having babies, cultural attitudes toward achievement (lack thereof), respect for those who teach, acceptance of uncivil behavior, or any of a myriad of other issues.
...Some people will never be good at being a plumber or an electrician. I gather you wouldn't be willing to finance a daughter's education (not many women want to be electrician or plumbers). Btw, a nurse (many female nurses) make more money than plumbers and electricians. So do teachers.
I brought this up because I think there's misogyny in your comments. Anything which isn't "man's" work in your narrow worldview seems to be not a good job and not worth paying for a kids education, according to you.
I don't think he said that.
He was just giving an example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d
Finally there are the anti-intellectuals, the old idiots, and the political conservatives, primarily white men, who live in a fantasy world where everything today is a conspiracy against "the common man" and "the blue collar worker", and where things were so much better in the "good old days" when as much as 60 to 70% of the population was effectively barred from competing with white males for the "best" jobs.
Generalize much?
You sound both racist and ageist. Also, narrow minded.
Just because people don't agree with your "progressive" attitudes doesn't mean they are stupid or wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Yet no one who comes from an affluent family is ever given this advice (go to a community college to save money for two years). If you do go to a community college you are not guaranteed a transfer to a notable school.
No one suggested you were.
You have to do well, just as you have to do well in high school to get into a leading college.
Also, I've known plenty of people from affluent families who have gone to community colleges.
Quote:
Look at our major politicians. If they didn't have major universities on their resumes, would they be where they are today?
I don't see why not.
People don't vote for the college you went to.
Of all the recent presidents, only the two Bushes, Clinton and Obama had fancy degrees.
You have to go all the way back to JFK to find an equivalent fancy degree.
I agree with everything else you said.
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