02022013, 02:42 PM



Location: San Marcos, TX
2,570 posts, read 7,478,389 times
Reputation: 4058


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
There isn't really any evidence that the OP has "dyscalcula". She is mathaverse, afraid of it, but that's not the same. The reason colleges have courses like "Liberal Arts Math" is because so many people are afraid of math. There is a thread on the general education forum about how to get people to understand math and science.
I think the suggestion of a tutor is a good idea. I took stats at a community college after more than a decade since my last math class, which was college algerbra b/c I am not great at math either. I found stats very easy. Is there a possibility, OP, that you could take these classes at a CC? They won't be easier, but the class is likely to be smaller, and the teacher more interested in teaching rather than weeding out students for some higher level.
My "just do it" advice was predicated on the assumption that the OP is at least of normal intelligence, and is capable of passing these courses. Presumably she passed high school algebra, and probably also geometry, since these are standard "college prep" math courses. I certainly did not refer to her as a slacker.

This will be kind of long but I feel I should clarify some things and explain my "math history" here.
I have considered the possibility of dyscalculia before but I have not had any sort of assessment or anything like that. My oldest son (now 20) was diagnosed in a general sense with a learning disability in math, and received special ed services in high school. Many of our "issues" are very similar.
I do have many (in fact, most) of the symptoms of dyscalculia. I just haven't had the money to be formally tested and I knew enough math to function in a basic way. When needed I use a calculator.
I did not pass high school algebra. I did do okay (moderately) in geometry and have always preferred it when having to do math. High school, for me, was 20something years ago but I vaguely remember getting a C in "prealgebra" then failing HS algebra twice. I was able to substitute other math classes for credits needed, and took "Consumer math" and something similar, basically math classes that focused on balancing a checkbook, figuring out a tip, calculating interest, etc. Then I quit high school right before my senior year and took some community college courses. I had to take a remedial math at that time and I failed it miserably. I was young and dumb and I did not understand that I could drop a class so I tried to hang in there and ended up with a 30 average. I got pregnant and dropped out of school.
Fast forward sixteen years, I returned to school (community college) and again tried to tackle the needed math, beginning with the most basic remedial class offered. Problem was, it was a hybrid course and mostly online, and I immediately panicked when I felt lost so I withdrew and put it off for a couple semesters. I tried again with the same course but inperson and on campus. I received an A in that course (Basic Mathematics, the A was a shocker but I had an EXCELLENT instructor), a B in the next (Introductory Algebra, same instructor), next class was "Elementary Algebra" and I did okay but struggled towards the end of the course. I was also ill for 2 weeks and missed a lot, and the instructor felt like I was close to mastering the material so she gave me a grade of "IP" or "in progress" so it wouldn't affect my GPA or cause me problems with retaking it.
All of these classes, by the way, were under the "remedial" classification and leading up to college algebra.
I retook the "Elementary Algebra" with a different instructor and got a D.
Meanwhile, during all this time at community college I was completing all my other basic core stuff and planning to transfer. At the time, I was looking at a major that would accept Liberal Arts Math in lieu of college algebra for the requirements for a Bachelor's, so I jumped on this and took LA Math at the community college. I failed this class but for a VERY stupid reason... not because I was not understanding it, but because I took it as an online class. We had to go to the campus for tests, and I completely spaced and FORGOT to show up for a test that was a big chunk of my grade. That, plus doing only soso on another test, resulted in a failing grade.
So I transferred anyway because I was approaching max hours at the CC. Now, I am at a 4 year school and the major I have chosen will not accept liberal arts math, but requires college algebra. So I am back in that situation and I still need remedial classes to be "ready" to take college algebra. Incidentally, the only classes that ever hurt my GPA have been math classes. Okay, one "C" in Biology (A&P), but I have always gotten A's and B's in everything else, even other Science courses. So, without math struggles I might have kept my 4.0.
I wish like hell I'd finished this before transferring, because I *did* take a remedial prealgebra at my current school and ended up withdrawing. The difference in the way they teach at this school is huge and the class was in a big lecture hall, with over a hundred students, with a required "lab" class where we did stuff that was the total and complete opposite of what was being taught in the lecture portion. Made no sense at all to me and I dropped it. The remedial classes at the CC were always under 30 students. Plus, I got to know those instructors. I wish I could go back there and finish the math requirements and have them transfer but I already transferred the max allowable hours. I *might* be able to get an exception though, I need to see my advisor again.
I mentioned it to her before and she wants me to check into some other program they are running for people like me, over the summer, so I am going to try that first.
So, this is getting to be too long, but anyway this lack of the college algebra credit is screwing up my class sequencing since I need it before I can take the stats and then that stats is needed as a prereq for something after. But I cannot just jump in to college algebra. I would surely fail, and aside from that, I have to test at the appropriate level first anyway before they would let me register for it, so I still end up having to take some remedial course or courses to get there.
Through all of this mess I have had tutors, used Youtube, used various online programs, spent hours in the math lab with volunteer assistants, you name it.
If you look at the list on the dyscalculia.org page I have many of those same problems, and what trips me up seems to be this sort of thing:
 When writing, reading and recalling numbers, these common mistakes occur: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals.
 Inability to grasp and remember math concepts, rules, formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts.
 Poor long term memory (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery may be able to perform math operations one day, but draw a blank the next! May be able to do book work but fails all tests and quizzes.
The bolded parts are especially resonant. I have never added or subtracted like everyone else but my own little "tricks" developed in childhood work well enough, I suppose. I am so thankful I had the multiplication table POUNDED into my memory at a young age or I would be screwed. Division rules are challenging. The bigger issue is anything "algebraic" though and that last part, about being able to perform one day then not the next is SO me. I cannot tell you how many times I sat in class and thought " OH my gosh!!! I GET IT!! I can do this!!!" then, literally within a few hours, I cannot remember how to do it.
I would do okay on homework as long as I could refer to the textbook 100 times to refresh myself on how to get the answer. Or with online homework where you click a video that reminds you of the process. No effing way have I been able to remember it enough to do it on the test, even when doing hours of homework daily for practice. I remember feeling so overwhelmed during a test, panicking because I knew that I KNEW the material but could not recall it, and I just left the room, midtest, in tears. The test was over three chapters and we were expected to remember various formulas and I studied for weeks, felt relatively confident right before the test, then started and it was as if it all was wiped from memory. And aside from math, I am not one to normally suffer from any sort of test anxiety.
Then I felt absolutely ridiculous but the inability to remember how to do this stuff when it came to test time created a full blown panic attack. I always felt like I would have maybe been okay if the test could be just over one specific thing, like one whole test that is over absolute value, DONE, move on, test over "Equations with variables on both sides", boom, DONE. If I didn't have to take comprehensive tests I'd be able to do this. But that's fantasy!
Sorry for the book.

02022013, 02:55 PM



Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,351 posts, read 115,908,941 times
Reputation: 35920


Well, I did not mean to put you on the spot. I too have had my issues with math, as I said. Some of those symptoms apply to me, too. I know many people who are far better at math than me. Some just have the knack for it and some don't.
I stand by what I said that you might have more success in a CC, because of the smaller class size. However, perhaps you have used up all the CC credits you can take for this degree. In that case, I would definitely discuss this issue with your advisor and perhaps get a waiver, or something. I would definitely NOT take any more math online courses. I think you are a person who needs to be there so you can ask questions immediately when you don't understand something. I also think you need to have more confidence in yourself. These courses are not "rocket science math".
Good luck to you.

02022013, 03:51 PM



Location: San Marcos, TX
2,570 posts, read 7,478,389 times
Reputation: 4058


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Well, I did not mean to put you on the spot. I too have had my issues with math, as I said. Some of those symptoms apply to me, too. I know many people who are far better at math than me. Some just have the knack for it and some don't.
I stand by what I said that you might have more success in a CC, because of the smaller class size. However, perhaps you have used up all the CC credits you can take for this degree. In that case, I would definitely discuss this issue with your advisor and perhaps get a waiver, or something. I would definitely NOT take any more math online courses. I think you are a person who needs to be there so you can ask questions immediately when you don't understand something. I also think you need to have more confidence in yourself. These courses are not "rocket science math".
Good luck to you.

No, you didn't put me on the spot. I just figured it would help with responses if I explained it all in one post. )
I do agree about the community college option increasing my chance for success, and definitely no more online math classes! I'm going to try and push the CC option if possible if the summer special course thing does not work out.
As for the course difficulty, like I said, a lot of times it makes sense to me and I feel like I understand it at that very moment, in class. I just don't retain it, at all. Not even for a few hours.
I also think that it's kind of stupid how at one school, Liberal Arts Math is okay as a prereq for stats and at another school it isn't, and it must be College Algebra. Both to take stats to get the same degree. I can't change schools for that, though, so I have to deal.

02022013, 07:39 PM



5,319 posts, read 5,840,955 times
Reputation: 4649


Statistics is closer to logic than it is to math, especially at the basic level. When you get into more advanced stuff like structural equation modeling and confirmatory factor analysis matrix algebra is useful, but basic ttests, means, standard deviations, correlations, and regressions have very little to do with math beyond the fact that they have equations.

02022013, 07:43 PM

Status:
"Here comes the sun"
(set 7 days ago)


Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,109 posts, read 29,947,675 times
Reputation: 64472


The OP MAY have dycscaculia and there is evidence that she might. That evidence is that she has navigated her way through almost four years of college without a problem. She is motivated to graduate and seems otherwise well educated and academically inclined.
Other signs of dyscaculia are :
1. Inability to read music  yet now problem playing an instument with out music.
2. Difficulty with games of strategy, such as chess.
3. Problems using an analog clock.
4. directional impairment
5. difficulty discerning left and right.
There are others, but these come to mind. On the website dycaculia.org, there is a simple test and more information.
It may not be the case, but it well could be. I think that at this point it is orth exploring.

02022013, 07:47 PM

Status:
"Here comes the sun"
(set 7 days ago)


Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,109 posts, read 29,947,675 times
Reputation: 64472


Quote:
Originally Posted by sabride
This will be kind of long but I feel I should clarify some things and explain my "math history" here.
I have considered the possibility of dyscalculia before but I have not had any sort of assessment or anything like that. My oldest son (now 20) was diagnosed in a general sense with a learning disability in math, and received special ed services in high school. Many of our "issues" are very similar.
I do have many (in fact, most) of the symptoms of dyscalculia. I just haven't had the money to be formally tested and I knew enough math to function in a basic way. When needed I use a calculator.
I did not pass high school algebra. I did do okay (moderately) in geometry and have always preferred it when having to do math. High school, for me, was 20something years ago but I vaguely remember getting a C in "prealgebra" then failing HS algebra twice. I was able to substitute other math classes for credits needed, and took "Consumer math" and something similar, basically math classes that focused on balancing a checkbook, figuring out a tip, calculating interest, etc. Then I quit high school right before my senior year and took some community college courses. I had to take a remedial math at that time and I failed it miserably. I was young and dumb and I did not understand that I could drop a class so I tried to hang in there and ended up with a 30 average. I got pregnant and dropped out of school.
Fast forward sixteen years, I returned to school (community college) and again tried to tackle the needed math, beginning with the most basic remedial class offered. Problem was, it was a hybrid course and mostly online, and I immediately panicked when I felt lost so I withdrew and put it off for a couple semesters. I tried again with the same course but inperson and on campus. I received an A in that course (Basic Mathematics, the A was a shocker but I had an EXCELLENT instructor), a B in the next (Introductory Algebra, same instructor), next class was "Elementary Algebra" and I did okay but struggled towards the end of the course. I was also ill for 2 weeks and missed a lot, and the instructor felt like I was close to mastering the material so she gave me a grade of "IP" or "in progress" so it wouldn't affect my GPA or cause me problems with retaking it.
All of these classes, by the way, were under the "remedial" classification and leading up to college algebra.
I retook the "Elementary Algebra" with a different instructor and got a D.
Meanwhile, during all this time at community college I was completing all my other basic core stuff and planning to transfer. At the time, I was looking at a major that would accept Liberal Arts Math in lieu of college algebra for the requirements for a Bachelor's, so I jumped on this and took LA Math at the community college. I failed this class but for a VERY stupid reason... not because I was not understanding it, but because I took it as an online class. We had to go to the campus for tests, and I completely spaced and FORGOT to show up for a test that was a big chunk of my grade. That, plus doing only soso on another test, resulted in a failing grade.
So I transferred anyway because I was approaching max hours at the CC. Now, I am at a 4 year school and the major I have chosen will not accept liberal arts math, but requires college algebra. So I am back in that situation and I still need remedial classes to be "ready" to take college algebra. Incidentally, the only classes that ever hurt my GPA have been math classes. Okay, one "C" in Biology (A&P), but I have always gotten A's and B's in everything else, even other Science courses. So, without math struggles I might have kept my 4.0.
I wish like hell I'd finished this before transferring, because I *did* take a remedial prealgebra at my current school and ended up withdrawing. The difference in the way they teach at this school is huge and the class was in a big lecture hall, with over a hundred students, with a required "lab" class where we did stuff that was the total and complete opposite of what was being taught in the lecture portion. Made no sense at all to me and I dropped it. The remedial classes at the CC were always under 30 students. Plus, I got to know those instructors. I wish I could go back there and finish the math requirements and have them transfer but I already transferred the max allowable hours. I *might* be able to get an exception though, I need to see my advisor again.
I mentioned it to her before and she wants me to check into some other program they are running for people like me, over the summer, so I am going to try that first.
So, this is getting to be too long, but anyway this lack of the college algebra credit is screwing up my class sequencing since I need it before I can take the stats and then that stats is needed as a prereq for something after. But I cannot just jump in to college algebra. I would surely fail, and aside from that, I have to test at the appropriate level first anyway before they would let me register for it, so I still end up having to take some remedial course or courses to get there.
Through all of this mess I have had tutors, used Youtube, used various online programs, spent hours in the math lab with volunteer assistants, you name it.
If you look at the list on the dyscalculia.org page I have many of those same problems, and what trips me up seems to be this sort of thing:
 When writing, reading and recalling numbers, these common mistakes occur: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals.
 Inability to grasp and remember math concepts, rules, formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts.
 Poor long term memory (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery may be able to perform math operations one day, but draw a blank the next! May be able to do book work but fails all tests and quizzes.
The bolded parts are especially resonant. I have never added or subtracted like everyone else but my own little "tricks" developed in childhood work well enough, I suppose. I am so thankful I had the multiplication table POUNDED into my memory at a young age or I would be screwed. Division rules are challenging. The bigger issue is anything "algebraic" though and that last part, about being able to perform one day then not the next is SO me. I cannot tell you how many times I sat in class and thought " OH my gosh!!! I GET IT!! I can do this!!!" then, literally within a few hours, I cannot remember how to do it.
I would do okay on homework as long as I could refer to the textbook 100 times to refresh myself on how to get the answer. Or with online homework where you click a video that reminds you of the process. No effing way have I been able to remember it enough to do it on the test, even when doing hours of homework daily for practice. I remember feeling so overwhelmed during a test, panicking because I knew that I KNEW the material but could not recall it, and I just left the room, midtest, in tears. The test was over three chapters and we were expected to remember various formulas and I studied for weeks, felt relatively confident right before the test, then started and it was as if it all was wiped from memory. And aside from math, I am not one to normally suffer from any sort of test anxiety.
Then I felt absolutely ridiculous but the inability to remember how to do this stuff when it came to test time created a full blown panic attack. I always felt like I would have maybe been okay if the test could be just over one specific thing, like one whole test that is over absolute value, DONE, move on, test over "Equations with variables on both sides", boom, DONE. If I didn't have to take comprehensive tests I'd be able to do this. But that's fantasy!
Sorry for the book.

As per the information provided within her latest post it certainly seems that there is more that a distinct possibility that this is the case. She may be entitled to have a class substitution or other accommodations, under the Americans With Disabilities Act.

02022013, 07:53 PM



Location: San Marcos, TX
2,570 posts, read 7,478,389 times
Reputation: 4058


Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
As per the information provided within her latest post it certainly seems that there is more that a distinct possibility that this is the case. She may be entitled to have a class substitution or other accommodations, under the Americans With Disabilities Act.

I was just talking with someone about this. I have an acquaintance who is a school psychologist and does assessments for LD's (among other things, of course) at public schools, self employed. I am discussing with him the possibility of having some assessment done privately, if it is not outrageously expensive. He told me that I should visit the special needs /disability services office at my school first though, to see if they would be able to make any sort of class substitutions of this nature. Or even if they'd let me transfer in additional hours for the purpose of meeting the math requirements so I can take those classes at the community college where I am more comfortable.
So, we shall see!

02022013, 08:01 PM



Location: USA
7,776 posts, read 11,863,161 times
Reputation: 11804


I don't like algebra, but, had to take a statistics course for my graduate degree and didn't mind it at all. Made an A.

02022013, 08:07 PM



Location: Warren, OH
2,745 posts, read 4,009,488 times
Reputation: 6503


Not "liking algebra" and having dyscalculia are two different things. It is not a matter of tutoring or studying harder. Frequently, it's a matter of a class exemption or substitution.

02022013, 08:09 PM



5,546 posts, read 7,870,753 times
Reputation: 11126


Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006
Statistics is closer to logic than it is to math, especially at the basic level. When you get into more advanced stuff like structural equation modeling and confirmatory factor analysis matrix algebra is useful, but basic ttests, means, standard deviations, correlations, and regressions have very little to do with math beyond the fact that they have equations.

agree, from my intro to statistics days it was mostly bell curves, etc. next course was psychometrics which had to do with IQ test analysis. So in any event, you have what you need to do well in the intro class. It was mostly logic flow.
I do wish I had taken even a noncredit course in Algebra for later things

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