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I already pointed out problems with how you interpreted the Oxford Dictionary definition. That's all I have to say. This post didn't debunk anything I said.
I interpret the dictionary definition as it is written and used the word correctly. You failed to point out any problems and your post didn't support that the term "diploma mill" was used incorrectly. All you did was state your opinion about how the legal classification of the term should be used instead of the definition of the term in the English language (which is absurd, on a discussion forum). That was the only point of my post. Since it was used correctly, there's no point in discussing this further.
I'm all about trying to clear up misinformation (though I think "facts" can be subjective) but have learned that, in general, arguing with people in this venue is almost pointless; they will swear they are right over and over until the end of time.
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Originally Posted by curtisc83
It doesn't really matter and usually I would just ignore it and let it go. But there has been such a large amount of bad info on these board lately I had to say something. If this was a automotive board I would keep my mouth shut and drive on like normal. It's when people start adding in their opinions as facts things start getting a little wonky. I think I've made my point and anyone reading my posts has all the proper info to make an informed decision on what's what.
Does it REALLY matter what the "official" definition of "diploma mill" is anyway? I think most people will get the point.
This is a general tactic by those who have no other way of making a point. They'll side-track with a tangent that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. In this case, it's obvious the definition used by people in this thread was the common English definition and most people here understand English enough to understand the point.
I interpret the dictionary definition as it is written and used the word correctly. You failed to point out any problems and your post didn't support that the term "diploma mill" was used incorrectly. All you did was state your opinion about how the legal classification of the term should be used instead of the definition of the term in the English language (which is absurd, on a discussion forum). That was the only point of my post. Since it was used correctly, there's no point in discussing this further.
There is no way to use the Oxford definition as a basis for a factual statement because it is based on the subjective words of "inadequate" and "inferior." If you believe a school is inadequate or inferior, then that is your opinion unless you can cite some kind of widely held standard. How is using the legal definition for something that has legal connotations and implications absurd? That statement in itself is absurd. When someone says that a person was driving drunk, people think of the legal definition of having a BAC of 0.08 or above. They do not think about the Oxford definition of having an excess of alcohol in the blood. That is too obscure.
From what I've gathered, most people's understanding is either that a diploma mill is a school that awards you a credential for a fee and little to no work or that it's an unaccredited school. The definitions are so all over the place, you can pick whatever you want to back up your argument. This is how Webster defines a diploma mill:
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An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless.
an organization claiming to be an institution of higher learning but existing for profit only and granting degrees without demanding proper qualifications of the recipients.
2.
a college or university having such a large number of students that none receives individual attention from the teachers.
A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an unaccredited higher education institution that offers illegitimate academic degrees and diplomas for a fee....
The term "diploma mill" originally denotes an institution providing diplomas on an intensive and profit-making basis, like a factory.[3] More broadly, it describes any institution that offers qualifications which are not accredited and/or are not based on proper academic assessment.
While the terms "degree mill" and "diploma mill" are commonly used interchangeably, within the academic community a distinction is sometimes drawn.[4] A "degree mill" issues diplomas from unaccredited institutions which may be legal in some states but are generally illegitimate, while a "diploma mill" issues counterfeit diplomas bearing the names of real universities.
So from what I've seen the general consensus of the term degree mill it's about unaccredited for-profit schools but that don't mean it can include schools that aren't for-profit or just push students through programs. The more generally accepted use though is the unaccredited for-profits like an Art Institute or University of Phoenix. (NOTE: normally others throw DeVry in here too but I have found that they are the best of these and not exactly unaccredited.)
So from what I've seen the general consensus of the term degree mill it's about unaccredited for-profit schools but that don't mean it can include schools that aren't for-profit or just push students through programs. The more generally accepted use though is the unaccredited for-profits like an Art Institute or University of Phoenix. (NOTE: normally others throw DeVry in here too but I have found that they are the best of these and not exactly unaccredited.)
All the schools you mentioned are accredited and are not diploma mills. They are low quality and should be put out of business but that's another conversation altogether.
All the schools you mentioned are accredited and are not diploma mills. They are low quality and should be put out of business but that's another conversation altogether.
UoP maybe accredited so may other for-profit schools that tried getting me do MBAs show accreditation and highlight it, don't mean they aren't mills that are easy to get degrees if you have the money to pay for the tuition and books. The reason I say that is because those degrees aren't worth the ink they are printed on. I've heard DeVry in this argument but I have seen that they are the best of the pack (not that it says much.)
So from what I've seen the general consensus of the term degree mill it's about unaccredited for-profit schools but that don't mean it can include schools that aren't for-profit or just push students through programs. The more generally accepted use though is the unaccredited for-profits like an Art Institute or University of Phoenix. (NOTE: normally others throw DeVry in here too but I have found that they are the best of these and not exactly unaccredited.)
This is exactly why some people think it's proper to use the legal definition of a diploma mill. People are already thinking about the legal definition of a diploma mill when they apply it to schools like Devry, Art Institute, and University of Phoenix assuming these schools are unaccredited. The problem is that they erroneously believe that these schools fit the legal definition of a diploma mill because these schools are, indeed, accredited. Having or not having recognized accreditation is a black and white issue. It's so easy to look up a school's accreditation. I can't see how people can repeatedly get this wrong. It's mind boggling.
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Originally Posted by mkpunk
UoP maybe accredited so may other for-profit schools that tried getting me do MBAs show accreditation and highlight it, don't mean they aren't mills that are easy to get degrees if you have the money to pay for the tuition and books. The reason I say that is because those degrees aren't worth the ink they are printed on. I've heard DeVry in this argument but I have seen that they are the best of the pack (not that it says much.)
It is my opinion that these schools are low quality. I think most people would agree that they are below average. Thousands of schools for-profit and non-profit are below average. However, I would not classify these schools as mills. These schools might not be as challenging as ranked colleges and universities, but people do drop out and flunk out of these schools all the time. You do have to turn in work. These kinds of schools tend to assign long papers rather than assessments, and a lot of their non-traditional students who weren't screened properly for admission just simply can't do the work. A true mill will award you a degree regardless of your inability to complete schoolwork as long as you can pay the fee. As I said before, an accreditor will not let a school get away with mill-like activities. Well, UNC might get away with the bogus courses it was offering athletes, but schools like UoP and Devry don't have that kind of clout.
I cannot argue with that Mr.Hospitality; there are posters on here (and you've gone back and forth with one) who *HAVE* to get the last word in and "prove they are right" and use this side-track technique to wear you down. Like you and I mentioned, I think most people know what a "diploma mill" is to the degree that the point is made . . . one can trot out a dozen definitions of different things . . . and go back and forth ad infinitum and it's all basically just an exercise in "being right" (in their own minds) more than it is about helping the OP.
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Originally Posted by Mr.Hospitality
This is a general tactic by those who have no other way of making a point. They'll side-track with a tangent that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. In this case, it's obvious the definition used by people in this thread was the common English definition and most people here understand English enough to understand the point.
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