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Old 08-20-2019, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaminade View Post
Even if allowed, it will probably be a lot more expensive than a community college AND more of a hassle (parking, registering, etc).
Depends on the location, I guess. Community college classes are free for high school students in California. Many kids take them and get dual (both high school and college) credit. It's actually encouraged by high schools. My second daughter is in high school and is taking art and dance at the community college, and several of her friends are taking Spanish. The difficult part is getting in to any "hard" academic class like math or science, as high school students have the lowest registration priority and those classes tend to fill up very quickly.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
c. I'm not a fan of the "CC and cheapest local college" philosophy to save money. You have to look at total cost and ROI. In many cases, esp if going into a STEM field, the local CC won't cover the required curriculum for the specific degree. Meaning you spend two years at CC and then still spend three to four years at a university because of course sequences and prereqs required for many STEM degrees. The CC path may work for gen eds, but doesn't always match up for STEM programs.
Very good point. For example, required engineering courses start at freshman level and several of these courses are not offered at community college.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:03 PM
 
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OP, your daughter seems to have a LOT of drive and desire to do well, as well as an idea of what she wants to do with her life.

Can she go in and talk to the counselor at school and get guidance?

Also, if your daughter had her eye on a couple universities, it would be VERY helpful to visit them at this point and ask the admissions office what courses would help her get in and succeed.


In my experience, community colleges are great ways to get some basic credits out of the way by taking duel credit classes, but a child with drive and ambition like hers shouldn't go to a community college for her freshman year.

Community colleges are for:

1. Students who don't know what they want to do, or even if they want to go to college
2. Students in families where there is real financial concern and sending them to a 4 year college isn't an option, cost-wise

I went to a jr. college my freshman year, as did about half my college going classmates and I never had the full college experience. By the time I got there, I didn't get to live in a dorm to have that emersion in college life, and community college transfers tend to suffer shock with the surprising work load of a 4 year university compared to what they had to do at the community college.

Best wishes! She certainly has a leg up on her peers, already putting energy into what she wants to major in.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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I really wouldn't worry about it too much--it looks like she's very much on track. When she applies to colleges, a couple of places may put some weight into an intended Applied Math major, but in most cases she'll be applying to a division of Letters and Science or Arts and Sciences where "undeclared" is the official major until sophomore or junior year. By that time, if her grades in math are still good, and if she wants to pursue Applied Math as a field, she'll be able to move from "Undeclared" to "Mathematics" or "Applied Mathematics" with no problem.

One glitch is if the Applied Math major is housed in a College of Engineering--such a division may require a separate application and admission from the start or shortly after entry into the university. But that set-up is not so common.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Some thoughts based on how things worked for our daughter (Physics).

a. She took AP Calc, APUSH, and AP everything in high school. Where it helped in college was she was able to use AP credits for some of her gen ed subjects which mean one less class each of her first three semesters (= less stress and more time for the classes that count). But her university only accepted a limited number of AP credits and didn't accept them in the degree program courses. Where AP math classes helped was her being better prepared for the initial calc classes. Enabled her to do better and start her off with a better GPA.

b. Being a female in physics enabled her to get some additional scholarship money at her university. May vary by university however.

c. I'm not a fan of the "CC and cheapest local college" philosophy to save money. You have to look at total cost and ROI. In many cases, esp if going into a STEM field, the local CC won't cover the required curriculum for the specific degree. Meaning you spend two years at CC and then still spend three to four years at a university because of course sequences and prereqs required for many STEM degrees. The CC path may work for gen eds, but doesn't always match up for STEM programs.

d. Likewise, I'd really look at what schools provide her chosen degree field and what the outcomes are for those universities. They just aren't the same. In STEM the major R1 and R2 universities simply provide better resources, and more research opportunities leading to better outcomes. https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ and https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/ provide some good data on how financial outcomes differ between universities for the same degree. It's kind of eye opening.
Every word of the above should be on a t-shirt especially the R1 and R2 logic.

Be very careful believing AP credits define a yellow brick road to college success.

1. Many top-flight colleges/univs. do not accept AP credits.
2. Many professional schools strongly prefer university credits over AP.
3. Become aware precisely how AP test scores work.

_______________________________

If your daughter shows legit math aptitude skip the C.C. thing.

Last edited by EDS_; 08-20-2019 at 09:16 PM..
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:15 PM
 
19,521 posts, read 17,753,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D View Post
It's the beginning of my daughter's sophomore year at high school and she finally thinks she knows what direction she wants to go in college. She wants to major in applied mathematics. She's torn between wanting to be a data science or do something with financial analysis and applied math is applicable to both. She looked at the course load for the state university and likes the classes too. Plus, she's bought herself Algebra books and PSAT prep books and has been doing math all summer for "fun" and to "stay sharp" (her words).

So now that she has a direction, I am starting to wonder about her courses and will they impact her acceptance to schools and possible scholarships.

Last year, all her core courses except Geometry were honors and she got all A's. This year, for her sophomore year, she is again in honors (Chemistry and English) and she's in AP World History (which will be a college credit if she does well). But Algebra 2 is just regular again.

The reason she's not in honors math isn't her grades, but it's because of one standardized score from 8th grade. Her Geometry teacher from last year was the one who needed to recommend her for honors and didn't. That teacher was torn because my daughter seemed to be doing well in Geometry but her standardized score from Algebra 1 (from 8th grade) was a 450 and they usually recommend a minimum of 470 for honors. These recommendations for honors classes needed to be made halfway though the school year, so the teacher had no idea where my daughter would end up with Geometry. The teacher said it was a tough call and played it safe.

By the way, I think part of the reason why the test score wasn't as high is because my daughter skipped a grade of math and went right into Algebra in middle school. But she ended up with an A in Algebra 1. She got an A in geometry too (98%) and aced the final with a 100%. At the end of the year, the teacher commented to my daughter maybe she should have been in honors Algebra 2, but by then, it was too late.

So guess who she has for Algebra 2, the same teacher! So the teacher knows the story (and seems to like my daughter too from the conversations we've had). I plan to talk to the teacher at parent night and mention my daughter's intention to be an applied math major in college and could she please keep an eye on her this year for possible recommendation for honors next year or maybe even AP classes. I think there is honors pre-calc but also AP statistics (which my daughter wants to take) that she can go into straight from Algebra 2 with teacher recommendation.

But will not having been in honors classes all along hurt her chances of acceptance in colleges for an applied math major? And if so, what can she do? Classes at a community college next summer? Or am I just a worried parent who is overthinking things as I often do.

Thanks!
Just a dose of tough love as it were.

Has your kiddo taken the SAT or SAT math subject tests?

My longer-logic point is that the maths (applied and especially theoretical), physics etc. are among the most competitive fields of study at university.

____________

If your kiddo is legitimately math inclined and a very hard worker she can do it. My daughter has 2 engineering degrees (electrical and computer) and dealt with myriad people short selling her over the years.


Best of luck.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:05 PM
 
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I think the AP classes and passing the AP tests with a 5 weighs more heavily for college admissions than high school honors classes. College is a much bigger pool than high school. When admission reps consider applications, they are viewing the applications from students from other states and even other countries. There is no uniformity in what constitutes an "honors" class. Criteria for these classes vary greatly and the math curricula vary tremendously all over the US, especially the order of how it is taught. The AP exams provide some standardization, at least nationally. So do the other standardized college admission exams.

Top tier universities generally do not allow students to apply the AP credit as a substitute for their own courses. However, they do use them and desire them for admissions acceptance. Less selective universities do accept them for credit, but will specify the exam grade that qualifies, usually not less than a 4.

Forget the community college route if she is considering Caltech, Stanford, UC Berkley. If she is considering one of the mid-level California public university systems, then CC is fine to get some credits out of the way. Colleges want to see well-rounded students so encourage your daughter to also pursue non-STEM related activities and volunteerism.

Despite all the hype, I assure you, there are more than enough females now in STEM fields. The contemporary problem is that few reach the high rungs of the ladder. That is still male dominated. And in Tech, many segue into something else after 10 years in tech jobs.

Depending on timing and room in your daughter's junior and senior years' schedule, the AP stats exam is considered less difficult/advanced than the Calc AP exams, especially Calculus BC. Some students don't have room for both Stats and Calc. Also, there are different physics AP exams., if she is considering engineering.
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:27 PM
 
10,181 posts, read 10,207,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D View Post

By the way, the AP class counts as a college credit. Per her plan, she will knock out about once semester of college in high school by taking various AP classes. So that will save us money. We are considering the local university as well (although I haven't checked to see if they even allow freshman to live off campus or not. I know the university I went to required freshmen to live on campus).
My advice would be to start researching both the requirements for Applied Mathematics majors and freshman mandatory classes at all colleges she may be interested in attending.

You should also consider looking in to private colleges as well; a great student can get a huge merit scholarship award (on top of financial aid) - which can translate in to spending less than if your kid went to an in-state public.

You could also look at "non-traditional" colleges that focuses on STEM & avoid wasting $/time on liberal art reqs.

However: when it comes to knocking out a full semester of liberal arts reqs via AP credits vs. what I have learned?

It depends on the college.

You can AP/5 through every English class that you want to - some colleges will still require that all freshmen take "First Year Seminar" (an Eng. class).

Some colleges require 2 years of a FL. Even if you took your "up to level III" req. of the FL in HS. You can do well on your college FL placement test, but that will just get you placed in to a high level FL class with those who are majoring in said FL. My oldest learned that the hard way.

Certain colleges may give AP credits in one's major, but it can & does depend on the major.

At my son's college? No AP credits given - in Chem or Bio - for a Bio/Chem major on the pre-med track.

Best of luck!

Last edited by Informed Info; 08-20-2019 at 11:37 PM..
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:32 AM
 
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Thank you all for the input.

I guess I worry because when we look at the regular admissions requirements for the schools in our state, I see crazy things like the average GPA for regular admissions being 4.28 or something like that. My daughter has a 4.16 now so it basically looks like just to be admitted to college she needs straight A's in all her classes and needs to take almost all weighted classes (honors and AP) to even get in to college. We are lucky that there are a lot of colleges in our state, but most seem to require above a 4.0. It just seems crazy.

She is not in the top tier of math that she can be. There are students "above" her. There are some rising sophomores going into honors Algebra 2. She's going into regular Algebra 2. But she is one of the few sophomores even at that level. Last year, she was the only freshman in her class.

The leg up that she might have over the super math students, my daughter is also very involved with the arts--mainly marching band and symphonic band. She also likes theater and painting. It seems like the super students (as I think of them) stick to all academic stuff. Of course, now my daughter wants to be on the quiz team (but the teacher wants her for her art knowledge they have a lot of math and science kids).

They have what I call, "required volunteer" work in the schools here. It's called service hours and all kids must do 10 hours a year. So far my daughter is still too young to do the volunteer work she wants to do (most things require you be 16). But that's on the menu too.

She's only just going in to her sophomore year. They let all the freshman take the PSAT last year as a trial run and did well (I can't recall the score, but I remember looking it up at the time and thinking it was pretty good considering she's not even a junior yet). Her counselor told her she did really well too. And she did nothing to prepare for it (I think I made her a nice breakfast that morning).

Community College is not free here (and since my daughter won't be able to drive for another year and a half, classes at the high school are easier for us. I am am working , single mom). It is something to consider for her senior year though as she will be able to drive then.

The AP classes at her school are generally accepted by the state university and they are free. I say generally because applied math is part of the engineering program. The website says to get into engineering one goes though general admissions, however, I talked to a senior (brother of a friend of my daughter's) and he said they require some other test (which he is studying for this summer).

The schools here all push PSAT and SAT, I never see anything in the school newsletter about ACT. Back in my day, no one here took the ACT. I guess it's another thing to look into.

Last edited by WalkingLiberty1919D; 08-21-2019 at 05:50 AM..
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D View Post
Thank you all for the input.

I guess I worry because when we look at the regular admissions requirements for the schools in our state, I see crazy things like the average GPA for regular admissions being 4.28 or something like that. My daughter has a 4.16 now so it basically looks like just to be admitted to college she needs straight A's in all her classes and needs to take almost all weighted classes (honors and AP) to even get in to college. We are lucky that there are a lot of colleges in our state, but most seem to require above a 4.0. It just seems crazy.
Are these public state schools? Some of them, like the University of California, create individualized GPA calculations for each student whereby only certain course grades are included. Here is one California high school's grade calculation sheet for that purpose:

https://www.fjuhsd.org/cms/lib/CA020...on%20Sheet.pdf

It's possible that other state systems have similar approaches. And yeah, weighted grades would tip the scale, for sure, but if 9th and 12th grade marks don't count as much in the total calculation, that could help your daughter focus a bit.

Quote:
She is not in the top tier of math that she can be. There are students "above" her. There are some rising sophomores going into honors Algebra 2. She's going into regular Algebra 2. But she is one of the few sophomores even at that level. Last year, she was the only freshman in her class.
Decades ago, I went to one of the most highly competitive public high schools in California--it was known, among other things, as a "math school." I wasn't in the top tier of math there, though I managed to work my way--with good grades--from average algebra in ninth grade to a senior-year Analysis/Calc A course that was one notch below AB Calc. I really loved math, but it was always my perception there that you had to be a top-tier math student in order to consider pursuing it. I believed this, in spite of my 99+ percentile SAT math score and my increasingly good grades in challenging math classes. What I didn't realize until too late, is that I actually had a high level of math ability, though I didn't really begin to actualize it until 10th grade, when I started studying more and became more academically ambitious. I didn't even consider math in college, because I wasn't one of the "high school superstars" (and there were many of them). What a mistake! I could very well have studied math in college, and I probably would have done just fine--probably not "superstar" fine, but still well enough to succeed. Math would have made a fine companion to the major that I did choose (a more verbal line of study).

If your daughter does well in classes, even if not all of them are weighted, she will still probably get into a good college somewhere (be sure to research the most appropriate prospects), and she'll be able to pursue math. Perhaps grade calculation formulas at state schools will help her, but probably her well-roundedness and drive to succeed at whatever level she's at will be perceived as an asset.

But don't forget: virtually every college offers a math major, and most larger universities offer an applied math major or option. This means there are hundreds, if not thousands, of colleges that have the program your daughter wants. She is bound to get into someplace reasonable, and if her grades and course array are good, she'll probably even do better than that.

If applied math at her target school is in Engineering, and if that program requires extra hoops for admission, that could be an issue, of course. But there are many other schools where that is not the case--she may have to find some of those schools and consider them, just in case.


Quote:
The AP classes at her school are generally accepted by the state university and they are free. I say generally because applied math is part of the engineering program. The website says to get into engineering one goes though general admissions, however, I talked to a senior (brother of a friend of my daughter's) and he said they require some other test (which he is studying for this summer).

The schools here all push PSAT and SAT, I never see anything in the school newsletter about ACT. Back in my day, no one here took the ACT. I guess it's another thing to look into.
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