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I think we can all agree that studying a difficult and specialized field like medicine, law, engineering, computer science or the like, at the graduate level, is far different than non-specialized undergraduate education. That should be obvious. We do not have the system they have in England, where undergraduates generally apply to specific majors at the top universities.
Moreover, defining “merit” involves far more than just test scores, especially for undergraduates. Grades, course selection, non academic accomplishments, and life circumstances, can easily reveal “merit” as well. Can these factors together show as much as an SAT score?
Many top schools are test optional, but I don’t know of any that will not consider test scores even if they are submitted. Let the great experiment begin!
I've been in academia for a long time. Per graduating high schoolers test scores are more important/meaningful than grades.
I get both sides too, but what makes a school great is how diverse it is.
Is race the only kind of diversity that matters?
Some of the most dedicated students in my college where the older students with work and life experience. And what about diversity of thought? Just like I wouldn't want to live in a place dominated by one political party I would not want to attend a university where everyone accepted a political/social platform to the exclusion of all others, e.g. Univ. of Hawaii and there "anti-free speech zones."
I don't agree that diversity is a guarantee of a great school. There are plenty of great schools that have little in the way of diversity, e.g. Stanford. The best school district in Texas, Eanes, is not diverse at all.
Some of the most dedicated students in my college where the older students with work and life experience. And what about diversity of thought? Just like I wouldn't want to live in a place dominated by one political party I would not want to attend a university where everyone accepted a political/social platform to the exclusion of all others, e.g. Univ. of Hawaii and there "anti-free speech zones."
I don't agree that diversity is a guarantee of a great school. There are plenty of great schools that have little in the way of diversity, e.g. Stanford. The best school district in Texas, Eanes, is not diverse at all.
I attended Westlake High and worked at Stanford before.
When I was at Westlake, it was very top-heavy. We had an extremely high percentage of kids one year making National Merit. It was not the quality of the instruction, but the example of a subset of the parents coming from high-end professional backgrounds, and the competition of the kids at the top competing to make their futures better. Teachers almost everywhere will adjust to the students in their classes.
It was a bubble, where the majority of the kids were rich spoiled entitled brats. I am probably being too nice with that wording.
When I was at Stanford, I would say, some of the people there were extremely exceptional. However, in STEM, I felt most of the people there were not exceptional (compared to other top, or even not-so-top schools), and were their just to have the Stanford name on their resume. They was not the same level of competition or fear of success that would have occurred at say, Berkeley. Those few exceptional people were motivated, but the bulk were no more motivated than other noticeably lower-ranked programs, and certainly didn't seem as passionate or full of intellectual curiosity.
Having attended other top ranked programs (both top 10 US and/or top 10 major), if anything, I don't feel the quality of instruction, or resources, teachers, etc. are any better. It's the social aspect, whether from the competition and drive to succeed being you're being graded more harshly against more motivated and more highly prepared peers, or whether some people are there for social connections which could facilitate future success.
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As a white male, shouldnt the White/Asian kid in an upper middle class household have an SAT score 300 points higher? I mean, when you get handed more tools in your toolbox and you dont have to live through as many experiences as other races/groups of people, you should have a higher SAT/GPA score. That hispanic kid with an SAT 300 points less will make up for it in experiences he brings to the university.
What makes you think being white or Asian means they were "handed" more tools or didn't live through difficult experiences?
I think we can all agree that studying a difficult and specialized field like medicine, law, engineering, computer science or the like, at the graduate level, is far different than non-specialized undergraduate education. That should be obvious. We do not have the system they have in England, where undergraduates generally apply to specific majors at the top universities.
Moreover, defining “merit” involves far more than just test scores, especially for undergraduates. Grades, course selection, non academic accomplishments, and life circumstances, can easily reveal “merit” as well. Can these factors together show as much as an SAT score?
Many top schools are test optional, but I don’t know of any that will not consider test scores even if they are submitted. Let the great experiment begin!
I know it's a bit different, but who studies a non-specialized undergraduate education? The purpose for going to college is to study something. Whether it's physics or mechanical engineering or history or business or pre-historic women's poetry. I'm not saying all those lead to good jobs, but they are focused on something. What is a non-specialized undergraduate education and why would anyone even spend time and money on that?
If I were in high school and had to face taking 2 standardized tests (the SAT plus the UC test, whenever it's developed) in case I wanted to apply to both UC schools and non-UC schools, I'd be irked. I'd take just one. So I would probably take the SAT and simply not apply to any UC schools. I'd guess that California residents may decide to take the UC test only and would apply only to UC schools, and non-California residents may decide to take just the SAT or the ACT and not bother applying to UC schools. So this change could bring more California residents and fewer nonresidents to UC schools.
Isn't it easier to just keep the SAT/ACT and weight scores based on ethnicity (or other disadvantaged statuses)?
If I were in high school and had to face taking 2 standardized tests (the SAT plus the UC test, whenever it's developed) in case I wanted to apply to both UC schools and non-UC schools, I'd be irked. I'd take just one. So I would probably take the SAT and simply not apply to any UC schools. I'd guess that California residents may decide to take the UC test only and would apply only to UC schools, and non-California residents may decide to take just the SAT or the ACT and not bother applying to UC schools. So this change could bring more California residents and fewer nonresidents to UC schools.
Isn't it easier to just keep the SAT/ACT and weight scores based on ethnicity (or other disadvantaged statuses)?
If UC is developing its own, "must take" admission test(s) then ditching the ACT/SAT may well make sense.
I know it's a bit different, but who studies a non-specialized undergraduate education? The purpose for going to college is to study something. Whether it's physics or mechanical engineering or history or business or pre-historic women's poetry. I'm not saying all those lead to good jobs, but they are focused on something. What is a non-specialized undergraduate education and why would anyone even spend time and money on that?
My bad. I meant non-specialized ADMISSIONS, not non-specialized education. In general U.S. students do not have to declare a major on their application. There are some exceptions of course, like for some nursing, business, or performing arts degrees, for example. But usually most kids choose a major (specialization) in sophomore year.
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