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Look, OP, your son is young and springy, and has support from his parents.
I withdraw my support for the JC alternative and throw all my support behind the "take the job now" alternative. Actual employment in the arts is scarcer than hen's teeth. Jump on it!
Later, whether that be two years or twenty, he'll still be young (or youngish) and able to re-direct.
I have known many people who pursued a career in the arts and then redirected as adults.
I would second this.
College is going to be very hard and a JC program would have a good bit of English and Math that it sounds like would not interest him. But that would definitely be better based on your description than a 4 year college.
Another possibility may be a technical college. If you could find one with his specialty. They don't require all the core courses.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
I think a 4-year program requiring skills your son struggles with would be a long haul. I don't think he'd make it. He might not even make it through the first year.
.... btw, he'll need some writing skills in order to put together a portfolio and resume, artist's statement, and other marketing tools.
Oh my..
.writing skills
Of all the recent STEM grads I interviewed in the last 8 years... None (not one) of them could write a sensible proposal or technical plan. Something happened! Spell check? They have no composition, descriptive talent or training. It has progressively gotten worse. Maybe our new hire engineers graduated college, but quite honestly, they can't compose to a 6th grade level.
This is something I would personally add to OP's son's 'home training'. It must not exist in college anymore. Have him write out the work / business / proposal details, and have his grandma (or equivalent age / experience) grade it!
My son is a senior in HS. He has multiple learning disabilities and school has always, always, been really hard for him. School requires him to do all the things that are most difficult for him (reading, writing, math, organization skills, study skills, etc). Despite that, he has a 3.5 GPA.
My son is also a very talented artist. For the sake of discussion, let’s say he is a sculptor.
He wants to be a professional sculptor. He has won awards for sculpting; he works as a
free lance sculptor and has a part time job in the field. Furthermore, he has already been offered a full time career path type job after HS graduation.
For a long time, the plan was that he would attend a 4 year university arts program.
There are several problems with this:
—even in the most arts based schools, there is still a large amount of GE curriculum that he does not want to take. I understand the philosophy of a BFA degree but son has no desire to take any further math classes, for example.
—all of these arts programs are *very* expensive, more than $40K a year. Now we would be OK with that if I had confidence that my son would stay all four years and thrive. I would hate for him to drop out after awhile and we’ve spent all that money and he has no degree.
—recently, however, it has struck me that my son is not very interested in any of these programs. Otherwise *he* would be showing enthusiasm for some of these schools, but he is not.
Recently, I read about a sculpting program at a junior college in another state. This school actually has one of the most prestigious sculpting programs in the country. It is all arts classes (no math, no biology, etc).
It is very affordable. The school even has dorms! This is one of two schools where my son has actually looked up the course sequence and has expressed an interest. He actually says we should tour the campus and so forth.
Higher education has been a huge deal in my family; we have doctors, lawyers, Ivy League grads...
So part of me is struggling with my inherent snobbishness towards junior colleges even though I believe this might actually be a good fit for my son.
He could continue on for his BFA if he so chose, but I’m not sure that a BFA is really necessary for his chosen profession.
Does anyone have any insight into arts schools vs work? A junior college in this type of circumstance?7
Am I being silly to keep thinking about the 4 year arts schools?
In light of the bolded, it sounds like you're still considering four-year colleges just because that's what's done in your family. People don't commit to a job at any age--they're free to leave, go to school part-time, or do anything else. Have you talked to your son's employer to find out what skills and qualifications are really needed in his field? Does this career path opportunity provide them?
BTW, a career path was something I never had even with an engineering degree--I bounced around short-term, entry level jobs for five years. Your son is lucky to have this offer.
Personally, I'd take the offer. I think that 2 year CC with the arts focus you mentioned could be a good fit. I think packing him up to a 4 year BFA against his wishes would be a mistake. Obviously, I'd let him make the final choice on any of these options. I'd take the employment though and see how he does for a year or two. It isn't as if when he's 20 those school options will be gone. Work experience is so much more valuable than "education", unless that education is in a specific field and trains for a specific job.
I'll quickly just use my life as an example. My parents are hyper-educated- they work in the medical field and help rural areas. We grew up in semi-rural southwest/south. My brother works with trains. Always has, always loved them. I've always been the "nerd". My brother barely completed high school; my folks forced him to go to a four year Uni- he failed out at the end of the first semester. He always went back during breaks, holidays, and even throughout primary school to the train yards. He helped build & repair all sorts of parts. My brother ended up with a career in trains- he built them for films, repaired existing lines, etc.; and was making well over 150k a year. Obviously, this isn't the arts though and pay scale may not be the same (he isn't actually in trains, but something akin/similar). He just recently quit at 30; he's doing one of those programmer schools and has an offer to be a programmer (albeit, the salary is lower, but still decent). He is financially much more successful compared to me. I'm very happy in my career- but I wasted so much time and money to get to where I am finally at. I'd really encourage you to 1) Let your kid pick (and you are doing great by trying to find as much info as possible to share with him to help him make an informed decision). 2) Don't worry so much! He is super young still. 3) Have him start at the job and see where it takes him (again, school will still be there in a year or two, or four!).
I think you're doing everything right and it is super nice of y'all to continue to support him.
My son is a senior in HS. He has multiple learning disabilities and school has always, always, been really hard for him. School requires him to do all the things that are most difficult for him (reading, writing, math, organization skills, study skills, etc). Despite that, he has a 3.5 GPA.
My son is also a very talented artist. For the sake of discussion, let’s say he is a sculptor.
He wants to be a professional sculptor. He has won awards for sculpting; he works as a
free lance sculptor and has a part time job in the field. Furthermore, he has already been offered a full time career path type job after HS graduation.
For a long time, the plan was that he would attend a 4 year university arts program.
There are several problems with this:
—even in the most arts based schools, there is still a large amount of GE curriculum that he does not want to take. I understand the philosophy of a BFA degree but son has no desire to take any further math classes, for example.
—all of these arts programs are *very* expensive, more than $40K a year. Now we would be OK with that if I had confidence that my son would stay all four years and thrive. I would hate for him to drop out after awhile and we’ve spent all that money and he has no degree.
—recently, however, it has struck me that my son is not very interested in any of these programs. Otherwise *he* would be showing enthusiasm for some of these schools, but he is not.
Recently, I read about a sculpting program at a junior college in another state. This school actually has one of the most prestigious sculpting programs in the country. It is all arts classes (no math, no biology, etc).
It is very affordable. The school even has dorms! This is one of two schools where my son has actually looked up the course sequence and has expressed an interest. He actually says we should tour the campus and so forth.
Higher education has been a huge deal in my family; we have doctors, lawyers, Ivy League grads...
So part of me is struggling with my inherent snobbishness towards junior colleges even though I believe this might actually be a good fit for my son.
He could continue on for his BFA if he so chose, but I’m not sure that a BFA is really necessary for his chosen
profession.
Does anyone have any insight into arts schools vs work? A junior college in this type of circumstance?7
Am I being silly to keep thinking about the 4 year arts schools?
If you really want your son to become a successful artist, it's more than the classroom work. It's the exposure to mentors, the access to programs beyond the classroom, and the contacts he'll need later in life to further his career.
I'm not saying that's not possible with a junior college, but it's also a much narrower path to success.
In truth, the general curriculum is a year and a half. If he's making a 3.5, he just needs to power through that and get it done. Then he can move on to enjoy a richer and more complete level of instruction than he can find in a junior college. What's more, given how an artist derives his inspiration from a host of sources, he might be well-served by rounding out his education.
He's not studying to be an electrician or some other field where all he needs is technical training. He's going to be an artist. And the more complete an artist's understanding of the world around him, the more readily he finds inspiration, the better he'll be. This is why a degree is so important.
Two more things:
1) Don't listen to people who say an arts degree is a waste of time or money. They are idiots. What they know wouldn't fit on the head of a damned pin. I know literally dozens of successful artists, from painters and illustrators to photographers to people who work in mixed media. People who have made it in the national pubs. People who sell their work beyond the scope of the local art show. People who make well into six-figure incomes from their work.
Hell, just this summer, I got a call from a friend of mine who has made it big in the art world. He was just leaving a patron's house in Boca after hanging one of his works next to a freaking de Kooning. He was so thrilled he just had to call someone. And now he's working on a piece commissioned by Oracle. His wife is a successful child psychologist and he outearns her year after year.
And to a person, the people I know in this field drew upon their contacts and experience from a formal education in the arts to help them advance in their fields. Oh, sure, there's the occasional Howard Finster who makes it big. But on the whole, a good degree program takes years off your learning curve.
Just like any other field of study, it's just as important to master the career end of being an artist. If your son attends the after-class functions, makes his contacts, gets his internships, and any number of other opportunities that are plentiful in a college environment, his prospects for making it increase exponentially. And you can't just find that at the junior college level or working somewhere right out of school. If he just goes to class and then goes home, he'll miss those critical opportunities.
2) If that job is being offered to him now, it will be there when he gets out. Or as an intern. Or as a part-timer. Or any number of other possibilities. But chukking the opportunity to really study his chosen field in order to get a paycheck is penny-wise and pound foolish.
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 11-17-2020 at 08:18 AM..
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver
If you really want your son to become a successful artist, it's more than the classroom work. It's the exposure to mentors, the access to programs beyond the classroom, and the contacts he'll need later in life to further his career.
...how an artist derives his inspiration from a host of sources, he might be well-served by rounding out his education.
He's not studying to be an electrician or some other field where all he needs is technical training. He's going to be an artist. And the more complete an artist's understanding of the world around him, the more readily he finds inspiration, the better he'll be. This is why a degree is so important.
...the people I know in this field drew upon their contacts and experience from a formal education in the arts to help them advance in their fields. ... If that job is being offered to him now, it will be there when he gets out. Or as an intern. Or as a part-timer. Or any number of other possibilities. But chukking the opportunity to really study his chosen field in order to get a paycheck is penny-wise and pound foolish.
OP mentions DS may not currently be ready for higher ed. There is no harm in taking the job and THEN going to school / education as he is ready / willing / interested to do so. I returned to college 5 different times during my career, but I didn't go to college directly out of HS (and very glad I did not). My career and education was significantly nurtured by experiences in both tracks. There is no way I would have gleaned as much value from my edu if I would have gone direct from HS. (each learner / situation is different).
My 'degrees' were if minimal value. My experiences (in EDU and Career) drove the success in harmony.
I would not advocate "One-or-the-other", much needs to be tailored on the situation and student and quests for career.
Many 'artists' are late bloomers. Getting that EDU late is no crime or barrier, if there is a likelihood of burnout / failure up front.
If you really want your son to become a successful artist, it's more than the classroom work. It's the exposure to mentors, the access to programs beyond the classroom, and the contacts he'll need later in life to further his career.
Yes, I agree with all this, which is why I was originally (and would still like to) push optimally for the 4 year art university.
However, when you have a child with learning disabilities, you learn that the optimal path for learning typical people is maybe not the path for the atypical child. My daughter is learning typical. She skipped 8th grade math and is acing Algebra 1. My son could barely pass Geometry. You can't always apply the same standards.
Also, you are assuming that he does not have mentors and is not already making contacts, and that is not accurate.
Quote:
I'm not saying that's not possible with a junior college, but it's also a much narrower path to success.
I would agree with you if this were XYZ County College down the street from me. But it is not. This particular junior college has one of the best programs in the country. The program that goes hand in hand with it, at the same school, is one of the most well regarded in the United States.
I have read dozens of curriculum pages for dozens of 4 year schools and 2 year schools...this one fits him to a T. The facilities are top notch, there are internships, the equipment is there, and I've even spoken to faculty members there.
Quote:
In truth, the general curriculum is a year and a half. If he's making a 3.5, he just needs to power through that and get it done. Then he can move on to enjoy a richer and more complete level of instruction than he can find in a junior college. What's more, given how an artist derives his inspiration from a host of sources, he might be well-served by rounding out his education.
He doesn't want to do another year and a half of general education. Yes, to you and to me, that sounds reasonable. That does not sound reasonable to him. All he wants to do is work on his craft.
Quote:
He's not studying to be an electrician or some other field where all he needs is technical training. He's going to be an artist. And the more complete an artist's understanding of the world around him, the more readily he finds inspiration, the better he'll be. This is why a degree is so important.
But surely inspiration and learning can be gleaned from travel, from work, from volunteering.
My son is intellectually curious.
He just does not enjoy school.
Quote:
Just like any other field of study, it's just as important to master the career end of being an artist. If your son attends the after-class functions, makes his contacts, gets his internships, and any number of other opportunities that are plentiful in a college environment, his prospects for making it increase exponentially. And you can't just find that at the junior college level or working somewhere right out of school. If he just goes to class and then goes home, he'll miss those critical opportunities.
See above comments.
2) If that job is being offered to him now, it will be there when he gets out. Or as an intern. Or as a part-timer. Or any number of other possibilities. [/quote]
2) If that job is being offered to him now, it will be there when he gets out. Or as an intern. Or as a part-timer. Or any number of other possibilities.
I agree with this and I have told him that.
[/quote]
Are you sure this job will be there later? Most of the time when people need a job filled, they quit interviewing once the job's filled. If your son doesn't take it, and someone else does, that someone else may well still be in the job, performing well and satisfying what the boss wants, one or two or four years later when your son finishes the educational program he doesn't want to do. If that happens, no job for kiddo.
Are you sure this job will be there later? Most of the time when people need a job filled, they quit interviewing once the job's filled. If your son doesn't take it, and someone else does, that someone else may well still be in the job, performing well and satisfying what the boss wants, one or two or four years later when your son finishes the educational program he doesn't want to do. If that happens, no job for kiddo.
Well, there are no guarantees in life, so sure...the job could not be there.
I can't imagine telling my 18 year old, "stick with this job son...there won't ever be another."
Should my son not spread his wings, explore, learn, stretch, grow... at 18 years old...because he is worried about this particular job? That seems really strange to me.
We’re also encouraging our son to see if he can still work for them while at school.
Also, it is not accurate to say that my son does not want to go to college at all. He does not want to take a lot of GE classes over 4 years.
Last edited by calgirlinnc; 11-19-2020 at 12:17 PM..
Well, there are no guarantees in life, so sure...the job could not be there.
I can't imagine telling my 18 year old, "stick with this job son...there won't ever be another."
Should my son not spread his wings, explore, learn, stretch, grow... at 18 years old...because he is worried about this particular job? That seems really strange to me.
We’re also encouraging our son to see if he can still work for them while at school.
Also, it is not accurate to say that my son does not want to go to college at all. He does not want to take a lot of GE classes over 4 years.
What I"m saying is not that he should take this job and stick with it forever. What I am saying is that jobs in the arts are scarce, but anyone can take 2 or 4 years of college and get a certificate or degree in arts. What stands out more when seeking employment is going to be actual working experience, not just another arts degree.
And let's face it, getting a 2 year certificate at the JC is in the reach of anyone with a pulse, at any time in life, and getting a 4 year degree is in the reach of anyone with reasonable intelligence and talent, at any time in life.
Let's use another art form.
If you were a bandleader, would you rather hire a fresh graduate of the music school who's never played a gig, or someone without a degree who's been playing professionally 250 nights a year since he was 14?
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That seems really strange to me.
