City for Champions (Denver, Colorado Springs, Boulder: club, shops, bus)

[otterprods]

Originally Posted by Jcelmer

I think we need a reservoir, not another stadium.

What do you mean? Are the Williams Creek Reservoirs not happening now? I don't think that project is in any ways dependent on whether or not a stadium, etc. is built.

[otowi]

I wish we could get the Ramah Reservoir back.

[Rangerdude_Charlie]

I am so sick of spending public tax dollars on useless projects such as this. It pisses me off, how about saving for a rainy day fund and if it so necessary to have this massive complex let the private investors take the reigns.

Charlie.

[hollyt00]

Would another reservoir actually... get water in it? Or would it take water away from other places?

I think it would be cool if this happened, as a downtown resident, it would be nice to see other things to attract businesses/people to downtown. I have a lot of students on the east side who never come downtown. If we want the Springs to be a big suburban blob (I suppose any more than what it is now), then ignoring the city center will do that. Our city is very spread out without anything to entice people to come downtown.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie

I am so sick of spending public tax dollars on useless projects such as this. It pisses me off, how about saving for a rainy day fund and if it so necessary to have this massive complex let the private investors take the reigns.

Charlie.

There are certain buildings that while great for the success of a community is not going to bring in private investors. Some of those include performing art theaters, football stadiums, baseball stadiums, convention centers, riverwalks, etc. That is why a government builds it then the private sector money will follow. Just look at downtown Denver and Pueblo for great examples as to how that model has worked. This has the potential to really help downtown Colorado Springs my biggest concern is why are they not moving the Sky Sox and can the Springs support two large stadiums?

[DD719]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

There are certain buildings that while great for the success of a community is not going to bring in private investors. Some of those include performing art theaters, football stadiums, baseball stadiums, convention centers, riverwalks, etc. That is why a government builds it then the private sector money will follow. Just look at downtown Denver and Pueblo for great examples as to how that model has worked. This has the potential to really help downtown Colorado Springs my biggest concern is why are they not moving the Sky Sox and can the Springs support two large stadiums?

Yeah, but what's missing in this discussion is the fact that downtown Colorado Springs already has a lot of those things: multiple museums, a fine arts center, a decent library, two colleges, etc, etc. What's missing from downtown COS? JOBS!!! Which is why this project is destined to fail.

Everyone tries to compare what COS is doing to what happened in Denver and other similarly sized cities, but they keep forgetting the fact that these other places prioritized gaining jobs first. Cities grow by attracting businesses first, then people, then housing to support those people. Transportation usually follows shortly afterward, then finally entertainment options are added to keep people around and invested in the community. COS, having failed in attracting businesses, then people, is trying to skip to the end of the process, but I can't think of a single instance in recent memory where that has worked.

Also, the reason the Sky Sox aren't moving is because the owner of the team keeps all of the profits from concessions and parking at his current location. He would have to give that up if he moved the team downtown. COS doesn't have enough money to sweeten the deal for him or buy the team outright, thus Sky Sox will stay on the east side of town.

[Maynerd]

The returned tax revenue is from a state program to bolster tourism (visitors from out of state). The City of Champions proposal certainly seems to qualify in that regard. This is not funding that could have been diverted to a reservoir. Apples and oranges. A water project will almost certainly need to be federal (Bureau of Reclamation), and this project involves state dollars.

If this effort successfully leads to a bulldozer scrapping the blight SW of the downtown core, and successfully leads to an attractive magnet between downtown and America the Beutiful Park, visitors will come, restaurants and shops will spring up, and our fair city will better live up to its incredible potential.

I'm all for it.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by DD719

Yeah, but what's missing in this discussion is the fact that downtown Colorado Springs already has a lot of those things: multiple museums, a fine arts center, a decent library, two colleges, etc, etc. What's missing from downtown COS? JOBS!!! Which is why this project is destined to fail.

Everyone tries to compare what COS is doing to what happened in Denver and other similarly sized cities, but they keep forgetting the fact that these other places prioritized gaining jobs first. Cities grow by attracting businesses first, then people, then housing to support those people. Transportation usually follows shortly afterward, then finally entertainment options are added to keep people around and invested in the community. COS, having failed in attracting businesses, then people, is trying to skip to the end of the process, but I can't think of a single instance in recent memory where that has worked.

I agree that the Springs needs to attract more primary jobs as the city is too reliant on the military, the GDP accounts for more then 50% to the military. That being said the Springs does have over 600,000 people in the MSA so there is no reason they can't improve their downtown. Pueblo does it and we only have 160,000 people in our MSA.

Is this the best plan? Without the Sky Sox moving to downtown I am not sure it is. Can the Springs support 2 stadiums?

Originally Posted by DD719

Also, the reason the Sky Sox aren't moving is because the owner of the team keeps all of the profits from concessions and parking at his current location. He would have to give that up if he moved the team downtown. COS doesn't have enough money to sweeten the deal for him or buy the team outright, thus Sky Sox will stay on the east side of town.

This is understandable. I would not want to move if I was him either and without him moving I don't see how the project can be successful. I think I have now changed my opinion on it.

[otterprods]

Originally Posted by hollyt00

Would another reservoir actually... get water in it? Or would it take water away from other places?

The williams creek reservoirs that I mentioned are part of the Southern Delivery System (already well underway) which will be drawing its water from the Arkansas River, specifically Pueblo Res. I'm neither endorsing nor criticizing that plan. Only trying to answer your questions. All reservoirs draw their water from other places, even if that happens to be via a river, the ground or the sky.

[Sonic_Spork]

I have no comment about sports events, because I have zero interest in that.

So I look at projects like this in regard to other entertainment, music usually. I cannot imagine an arena-filling act choosing to play here instead of Denver, even if the facilities exist. If Iron Maiden, or Metallica or something comes to Colorado, they're going to Denver, because that's the most central spot with the most people. Period.

Furthermore, the acts I follow tend to hit venues with a capacity of 1,000-1,500 people. So places like the Gothic, the Bluebird, the Ogden, Fox in Boulder...we don't seem to have anything like that here. I guess that'd have to be a private enterprise, but I'd really like it if we did.

I hardly ever even think about downtown, I know nothing about any events going on...they need to get the word out when stuff is happening. I know more about any given gun show than I do First Fridays or arts events or anything (I had to do a Google search to even know that downtown CoS has events.) There is more to a happening downtown than just its sports stadiums. Most thriving downtowns in cities I'm familiar with also have their particular claims to fame, whether that's a specific kind of food, history, weird art/sculpture, a famous landmark building or monument...what do we have, here?