Amazon buys Colorado Springs Airport site for massive distribution center

[Surgzown]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

I took the MCAT (did well), almost went to med school and decided to not apply. I know tons of doctors and am very familiar with it. The issue is not my lack of knowledge on physicians. It is your lack of knowledge on machine capability over the next thirty years. After all, you referred to them as "automated" machines. Clearly, you are not referring to machines that are actually more intelligent in a general sense than humans.

Once machines are smarter than humans and have better critical reasoning skills than humans, and the tools used for surgery can be better manipulated by machines than humans (this seems like an obvious plus given machine precision), why would a human be needed?

Either your notion of machine intelligence is far too limited (you did refer to them as "automated" machines") or you are only considering current machine capability rather than future capability. You know what the over/under on the singularity was in a poll conducted recently among relevant experts? Forty years, and the poll was done about four years ago. That's 35-40 years until there are machines that have greater general intelligence than humans. Once there is a machine with an IQ of 200 that can also be designed to handle tools with greater precision than any human in history, how on earth would that machine not be capable of doing surgery?

I’m sorry but I don’t think you actually did take the MCAT or even in general know what physicians do on a daily basis. Your lack of knowledge on what a regular physician does and what someone with a PhD in computer science tells you that AI will never be able to do what a human physician does, you do know that every human’s anatomy is not the same, correct? Machine learning is just that, a machine doing pattern recognition. Nothing more and nothing less. Take a kid that learns the letter “A” and write that same letter in a thousand different fonts. What happens? The kid recognizes that is still the same letter. A robot will not recognize that. Does a robot know anything about black hole physics? Nope. The robot will be good at mundane tasks like driving, assembly lines and anything that follows a pattern. AI can’t even read an EKG. AI will never be able to perform a physical examination. Medicine is an art, not a science. Relevant experts? Whose a relevant expert in your eyes? Someone with a masters degree in computer science? Or a PhD? Naw, I’m not buying it. I know someone personally who had a BS degree in a computer related field and said the same things you suggested. Then he got accepted into medical school and went into Radiology. He said he doesn’t feel the same as he did back then. Exaggerated greatly. Says no way will a machine replace a human in medicine. How does an AI interpret medical literature? Or what’s of interest? Computers/AI will just be a tool like a calculator is for a mathematician.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Surgzown

I’m sorry but I don’t think you actually did take the MCAT or even in general know what physicians do on a daily basis.

Ah, so you are just straight up calling me a liar? That's a great way to start a conversation.

Originally Posted by Surgzown

Your lack of knowledge on what a regular physician does and what someone with a PhD in computer science tells you that AI will never be able to do what a human physician does, you do know that every human’s anatomy is not the same, correct? Machine learning is just that, a machine doing pattern recognition. Nothing more and nothing less. Take a kid that learns the letter “A” and write that same letter in a thousand different fonts. What happens? The kid recognizes that is still the same letter. A robot will not recognize that. Does a robot know anything about black hole physics? Nope. The robot will be good at mundane tasks like driving, assembly lines and anything that follows a pattern. AI can’t even read an EKG. AI will never be able to perform a physical examination. Medicine is an art, not a science. Relevant experts? Whose a relevant expert in your eyes? Someone with a masters degree in computer science? Or a PhD? Naw, I’m not buying it. I know someone personally who had a BS degree in a computer related field and said the same things you suggested. Then he got accepted into medical school and went into Radiology. He said he doesn’t feel the same as he did back then. Exaggerated greatly. Says no way will a machine replace a human in medicine. How does an AI interpret medical literature? Or what’s of interest? Computers/AI will just be a tool like a calculator is for a mathematician.

You are not even in the arena of AI (real AI, not the fake AI that every company pitches on commercials now). Real AI is much more than the simple sort of pattern recognition you are describing here. The singularity is the moment that artificial intelligence exceeds human intelligence in a general sense, not a simple pattern recognition, specified response sense. Are you actually arguing that the singularity will never happen? Not a single expert in the field agrees with you. Machines will one day be better at reading medical research and incorporating it into a general knowledge of human health than humans will be. There's zero doubt about that.

I suggest you start here: https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_bostr...re?language=en

[Surgzown]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Ah, so you are just straight up calling me a liar? That's a great way to start a conversation.




You are not even in the arena of AI (real AI, not the fake AI that every company pitches on commercials now). Real AI is much more than the simple sort of pattern recognition you are describing here. The singularity is the moment that artificial intelligence exceeds human intelligence in a general sense, not a simple pattern recognition, specified response sense. Are you actually arguing that the singularity will never happen? Not a single expert in the field agrees with you. Machines will one day be better at reading medical research and incorporating it into a general knowledge of human health than humans will be. There's zero doubt about that.

I suggest you start here: https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_bostr...re?language=en

Yes, I’m straight up calling you a liar. Do you think everyone on the internet just follows some strict code of decency and doesn’t lie to make their position sound better to the masses? I hate to tell you the truth but it happens all of the time.

You give me a source from TED talks? Are you seriously kidding me? I’ve seen some of the BS they spew on there and it makes me chuckle. Artificial intelligence will never surpass human intelligence. You know that, right? These experts aren’t really experts. You should of just mentioned Vinod Khosla and his preposterous claim that machine learning will eliminate 80 percent of what a healthcare professional does in a typical day. Notice very closely that Khosla has NO medical background. No medical experience. And what happens to the rest of the 20 percent not mentioned? This is propaganda like other listed propaganda as for example, the world will end in the year 2000. These AI experts are clueless. Imagine someone working at Burger King telling you what fluid dynamics and heat transfer are all about...you would look at them a little weird. There’s zero doubt that you have no idea what you are talking about and being that you have no medical background, I would suggest you refrain from talking about things which you have no knowledge. And I don’t need a source for that.

[Robert5]

Originally Posted by Surgzown

..And the Da Vinci robot in the words of many doctors is worthless. At the end of the day, there will still be human doctors (Radiologists, Pathologists, Surgeons and the like) along with other human professions like Engineers (Mechanical, Electrical, etc) Humans aren’t going anywhere in the workforce.

I think you made a lot of good points. I had a partial nephrectomy done with a Da Vinci system, so it is something I know a fair amount about. I agree it is over rated, and far from a true robotic system. The surgeon is controlling the instruments via a trackball like device from a console 10' feet away from the patient, it is not like the 'Robot' is making any decisions. But I would not call it worthless, IMO it allows for more precise endoscopic work. Is it worth $1,500,000?, I don't know, but I specifically selected the hospital I went to have surgery at because they had a Da vinci Machine, my thought process was that any surgeon the hospital allowed to train on a $1,500,000 machine was probably competent.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Surgzown

Yes, I’m straight up calling you a liar.

Ah, well, good luck! I don't participate in conversations that start out like that. If I wanted to lie don't you think I would have made up something a bit more impressive than simply having taken the MCAT at some point?

And denying that the singularity will ever occur is absurd. Bill Gates, Elon Musk and nearly every computer scientist of any note in the world think it will happen. The guy in the video you knocked? That's Nick Bostrom, head of Oxford's Future of Humanity Institute. Saying the singularity will never happen is absolutely absurd.

Btw, there is no "they" with TED talks. TED talks (not to be confused with TEDx) are given by veritable experts in various fields. There is no commonality about which you can say "These videos are unreliable" any more than you can say "books are unreliable."

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Robert5

I think you made a lot of good points. I had a partial nephrectomy done with a Da Vinci system, so it is something I know a fair amount about. I agree it is over rated, and far from a true robotic system. The surgeon is controlling the instruments via a trackball like device from a console 10' feet away from the patient, it is not like the 'Robot' is making any decisions. But I would not call it worthless, IMO it allows for more precise endoscopic work. Is it worth $1,500,000?, I don't know, but I specifically selected the hospital I went to have surgery at because they had a Da vinci Machine, my thought process was that any surgeon the hospital allowed to train on a $1,500,000 machine was probably competent.

Dude, comparing DaVinci to superintelligent machines is like comparing a computer from 1980 to computers now. DaVinci isn't anywhere close to the sort of thing we're talking about.

[Robert5]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Dude, comparing DaVinci to superintelligent machines is like comparing a computer from 1980 to computers now. DaVinci isn't anywhere close to the sort of thing we're talking about.

thanks Mom. I was not engaged in a scifi discussion. Reread the thread and you will see the chain of posts that lead to my comment.