Springs 2010 budget, attempted MASSIVE tax increase with Prop 2C

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Postal

Well, apparently we is 2 of every 3 voters in Colorado Springs.

And I'm glad you don't think they have an entitlement mentality. I'd have to judge that for myself, though.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

Good grief! I'm seldom speechless, but that's a rude thing to say.

[Postal]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Good grief! That's a nasty thing to say about someone's kids.

Well, unfortunately, too many Americans think they are entitled to whatever they want and I don't know you kids. I hope you are right, though. We need more people to break society out of that mentality. It seems to be the root cause of many of our troubles.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Katiana

So what if the kids preferences run to something other than scouting and little league baseball? My kids did gymnastics at the local rec center. That's an expensive sport, even at a public facility. No one is asking the local rec centers to "entertain" their kids, that I know of.

Then I'd tell you that there are lots of other options that don't cost a tremendous amount of money--there's also debate team, science club, language clubs, track and field, basketball, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.

If my kids had wanted to participate in equestrian sports, ski jumping, or skeet shooting, it simply would not have been reasonable to expect the government to tax other people to accomodate their desires. I shouldn't have to pay to keep somebody else's kids occupied in the activities they want...that's THEIR job.

A city without a gymnastics program is like a men's room without a tampon dispenser. Only someone that doesn't understand the purpose of a city or a men's room would insist that either is necessary. And if something isn't necessary, it shouldn't be funded with tax money expropriated from the citizenry.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

Then I'd tell you that there are lots of other options that don't cost a tremendous amount of money--there's also debate team, science club, language clubs, track and field, basketball, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.

If my kids had wanted to participate in equestrian sports, ski jumping, or skeet shooting, it simply would not have been reasonable to expect the government to tax other people to accomodate their desires. I shouldn't have to pay to keep somebody else's kids occupied in the activities they want...that's THEIR job.

A city without a gymnastics program is like a men's room without a tampon dispenser. Only someone that doesn't understand the purpose of a city or a men's room would insist that either is necessary. And if something isn't necessary, it shouldn't be funded with tax money expropriated from the citizenry.

I don't know what makes you the arbiter of which sports programs are "necessary" and which are not. Why is basketball "necessary"? Why track and field, basketball, soccer, tennis and volleyball, yet not gymnasitcs? Debate team is offered at the high schools, but my kids' high school had no "science club" or "language club".

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I don't know what makes you the arbiter of which sports programs are "necessary" and which are not. Why is basketball "necessary"? Why track and field, basketball, soccer, tennis and volleyball, yet not gymnasitcs? Debate team is offered at the high schools, but my kids' high school had no "science club" or "language club".

Economics is the arbiter. You yourself suggested that gymnastics is an expensive activity. It's also a potentially dangerous one, with all the liability issues that come with teaching kids to intentionally catapult themselves as spinning projectiles high into the air.

There are still lots of other less costly options with broader appeal and interest.

I've seen even tiny schools with a French Club or a Spanish Club--that's not something costly to do...just has to be some interest.

[sterlinggirl]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I don't know what makes you the arbiter of which sports programs are "necessary" and which are not. Why is basketball "necessary"? Why track and field, basketball, soccer, tennis and volleyball, yet not gymnasitcs? Debate team is offered at the high schools, but my kids' high school had no "science club" or "language club".

The answer is that no sports programs are necessary. The job of our schools is to educate students to provide for our future prosperity, and until you can make a valid argument that those programs will fulfill that goal, they do not make economic sense and should be eliminated if they cannot be paid for by the people who want to participate.

The same is true with college courses. Why should taxpayers and serious degree seeking students be forced to subsidize million dollar salaries, stadiums and full ride scholarships for athletes? Forcing that burden upon the people who are simply there to seek an education makes our overpriced educational system even less affordable to the people who really need it.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

Economics is the arbiter. You yourself suggested that gymnastics is an expensive activity. It's also a potentially dangerous one, with all the liability issues that come with teaching kids to intentionally catapult themselves as spinning projectiles high into the air.

There are still lots of other less costly options with broader appeal and interest.

I've seen even tiny schools with a French Club or a Spanish Club--that's not something costly to do...just has to be some interest.

You're twisting what I said about gymnastics, no pun intended. Gymnastics is expensive b/c it can't be done with volunteer coaches like some of the other sports. As for liability, we rec program parents were always told that swimming also has high liability costs (drowning potential, etc), yet virtually every rec center is willing to take that on.

What the schools do is out of pretty much out of the parent's control. My kids' high school didn't have the array of "clubs" like my old high school did. The schools make the decisions what kind of extra-curriculars they are going to offer. Perhaps that's an outdated model.

[Bullitt007]

You know, there are just some people who will never be convinced that raising taxes is a poor idea, regardless of the facts.

I have yet to see anyone from the other side address the issue of themselves sending in more money if you feel that the government needs more of your money. Please DO NOT make decisions with MY money.

If you want to send more in because you believe government can better spend your money, then go right ahead.

I'm just amazed at how some people feel that they know how to spend my money better than I know how. And then add the fact that they have an attitude about it.

[Bullitt007]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Do your daughters go to public school? That is a "government handout".
Do you drive on public roads? Ditto
Do you get a tax deduction for your house, your health ins., medical expenses, etc? Ditto

I do not want to disparage someone who is budgeting like you and making ends meet; I have been in the same position myself. But do realize you are getting government help.

You know what...it's none of your business!!! See, that's part of the problem here. Those on the pro 2C side have to have their noses in everyone's business.

If you're so worried about other's people money, then it's time for you to step back and relax a bit.

Oh, and for the record, you really need to do some research on "government hand-outs"...you honestly think that kids going to public school is a "government hand-out"??? ROFL...

[Mike from back east]

Closed for moderator review.

I've decided to leave this one closed.

The election is over, the referendum failed to pass.

No one is going to change anyone's mind on this topic and all we'll do it post increasingly arcane arguments and/or insults.

Political topics always end up a can of worms; there's no right or wrong to them, only opinions, and we've all had our say.

Thank you.