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Old 08-24-2013, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Bend, OR
3,296 posts, read 8,857,440 times
Reputation: 3328

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Then out of what magic hat does it come from?

Wind and solar require the mining of a lot of harsh rare earths and other minerals to make their equipment and because the wind doesn't blow all the time and the sun doesn't shine all the time either, all that is merely a supplement and an expensive one at that.

The eco nuts have totally stopped any new nuclear power plant construction for over 30 years.

Coal does a great job of producing electricity but it's in the cross hairs of the obama administration as this great evil to mankind.

Wood is not realistic.

We've been told for 40 years that we need to end our foreign dependence on oil and gas. Now we are doing so, creating American jobs and stimulating the economy and that is labeled as evil too.

So what is it going to be?

What I want to hear is what is the alternative right here and right now. Not in 2050 when we have Mr. Fusion on the back of our DeLorean, but right here and right now.

I tap into a lot of local resources and information on fracking. The lengths these companies have to go to "to protect the environment" are insane and over the top. Fracking technology is moving fast and they have developed a lot of alternatives that don't require much water or any water at all as well as "safe" chemicals. They have 3D seismic surveys and computer modeling and have gotten to the point they can drill to within a foot of accuracy. The technology has also gotten better to where they can use one well pad and go out for a long distance in many directions.

I think what I am finding is that many are just uninformed people that regurgitate garbage from hysterical "progressive" websites and left wing newspapers and they would not even know what a natural gas well site looks like, much less what is involved or anything else about it.
That "magic" happens to be hydroelectric power. Here in the PNW we have an abundance of water. Now, I know there are environmental issues associated with this type of technology as well, but there have been a lot of measures taken to abate those. I do supplement my electric use with some wind power as well. In addition, I burn wood in the winter to heat my home. Fortunately, for us, we don't have an issue with air quality. I realize that my burning of wood does pollute the air though, so if I were to live in an area where air pollution were an issue, I would not burn it.

I'm not naive enough to think that energy production is "magic" and that clean energy is devoid of all environmental impacts. I understand that we must mine the minerals used to create solar panels, and that wind power can impact migratory bird populations. I also understand that both these technologies require large tracks of land and will impact the landscape. However, these types of energy production do not pollute our air like traditional fossil fuels. They are also renewable.

I realize we must use resources in order to live. I don't live in a teepee. I just wish that we would shift towards a cleaner source of energy in my lifetime. We have the technology, but not the funding. The O&G industry is making sure of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
wanneroo wrote: The eco nuts have totally stopped any new nuclear power plant construction for over 30 years.

A victory of sorts IMO. I tip my hat to the eco nuts!
I second that sentiment! Just take a look at what is happening to the fisheries in the Pacific Ocean right now after the Fukushima disaster.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:53 PM
 
9,840 posts, read 20,485,232 times
Reputation: 7667
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
wanneroo wrote: The eco nuts have totally stopped any new nuclear power plant construction for over 30 years.

A victory of sorts IMO. I tip my hat to the eco nuts!


wanneroo wrote: "safe" chemicals

Those two words hardly belong together when describing the chemical concoctions of the chemical companies, which is likely what you were referring to.
Just about everything you use including your computer you type on involves the production and use of chemicals.

It's sad that the environMENTALists have hijacked the scientific study of chemistry as though it's now evil and wicked. Chemistry makes your life possible. Without it you'd be long dead from living a short existence in the elements under a dried out buffalo hide.

So all chemicals now are evil and unsafe?
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,794 posts, read 17,544,973 times
Reputation: 9424
wanneroo wrote: So all chemicals now are evil and unsafe?

Never said that. As usual, you are reading into what I wrote, rather than simply reading my words. As stated, I was referring to the chemical concoctions of the chemical companies, and even then....I never said that ALL of them are evil and unsafe.

Last edited by CosmicWizard; 08-24-2013 at 01:44 PM..
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:24 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 6,355,236 times
Reputation: 2633
Wink The alchemy of chemicals

To suggest that chemicals are evil or wicked would be no more than subjective opinion. Objectively everything in this universe just is, neither good nor bad. To assign some judgement is to enter the human realm.

Nevertheless, chemicals can certainly prove toxic. Even pure water can prove as much. I was more than interested to the read the case sometime back of someone who actually managed to die from ingesting too much water. So what we speak of is alchemy, in understanding the correlation between substances, and their proper use if attempting to achieve some harmonious balance.

When it comes to fracking, a host of potentially toxic chemicals are involved. I will not bother listing them here again, as some previously, and anyone so interested can quickly look this up themselves. But aside from anything potentially leaking into groundwater or spilled into it (both having happened), fracking involves the release of chemicals into the air and their injection into the ground. That is just fact. And as well that in relatively small amounts some of these chemicals will make you sick, and in larger quantity do you in.

Having in said that then mentioning that to my knowledge no one has yet directly died as a result of fracking (and its chemicals). Many will likely suffer decreased lifespans as a result, but that a topic for another time. But fact that some have become seriously ill as a result to inordinate exposure, and a good many others at a greater remove (mostly homeowners) reporting various unpleasant symptoms. This most often related to airborne exposure. There is a reason why Colorado recently increased the required setback of fracking operations in some instances (and why this still not far enough towards health).

But it doesn't take a chemist to understand that we are pumping a lot of potentially toxic chemicals (with this determined by degree and volume) into the ground. With concurrently a large amount of water so contaminated in the process and requiring thorough filtration before being reused by the public. Thus the question of that. Or that a good amount never is but pumped back into the ground to remain there, the earth serving as its new disposal site presumably unto eternity. Nor a geologist to wonder what perhaps may become of our underlying geology, its stability, or eventual long term effect on any groundwater, when so much of it is being blown up.

All relevant questions, and if anything answered BEFORE the fact, not after it when only insincere excuses will answer for that done. There is no harm in the asking, just as potentially no harm in any one chemical used proportionately and wisely—but just as well possible great harm in not knowing what one is about.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
33,222 posts, read 13,957,666 times
Reputation: 24313
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
"Progressive" is simply the progressive march towards marxism or any variation there of.

Last I checked President obama was not a dictator who could wave a pen and ban anything he wants. I think some of these people forgot we have something called the Constitution which stands in between people like these totalitarian nuts and our freedom.

It's an immediate threat to what?

These people other than very isolated instances of issues have yet to prove this widespread contamination of anything.

I firmly believe these people, obama included, support the 3rd worlding of the USA and it's de-industrialization of it's society.
Actually, I don't believe Obama has done much of anything to regulate fracking.
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:52 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 6,355,236 times
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Wink I'll have that *without* oil, please

"Regulators say they agree these well sites could pose a contamination risk, and they will get out to assess the damage as soon as it’s feasible." [1]


Another interested member of this forum mentioned this article and issue which is a result of the massive flooding along the Front Range, but as one might expect receiving little attention at the moment. Most of that, naturally, being focused on the many people still stranded and yet to evacuated—as well as all the damage done.

Well, this is damage too, but to the environment and greater health of those later affected which will realize it then.

Apparently—as illustrated in part by the reference cited—a good many oil installations (and most of those involving fracking) have suffered damage in result of this widespread flooding. Specifically mentioned are installations in Weld County. This county, in places such as Greeley, have suffered from these unusually high river waters as well. For what began in the confines of narrow canyons has only continued east and spread out all the wider once on the plains. I happen to personally know, as having been there, that there are many such oil operations scattered throughout the region. Installations along the St. Vrain are said to be one area affected. With large oil storage tanks tipped from foundations and possible breached in cases.

Unfortunately there is raw sewage, propane tanks and a wide range of debris currently flowing in these rivers. Residents have been warned in areas not to come in contact with the water due health concerns. So only an unwelcome addition to this should oil and its many inherent toxins become part of that mix.

While our concerted efforts and attention are elsewhere at the moment, perhaps remember even now some of the broader implications of this quite unusual weather—and what is, if out of sight to many, occurring.

1) 'Is there a media blackout on the fracking flood disaster in Colorado?,' TXsharon
Is there a media blackout on the fracking flood disaster in Colorado?
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Old 09-17-2013, 04:13 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 6,355,236 times
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Wink Update on flood and possible oil release

"Any pollution from oil fields likely will be mixed with a stew of agricultural pesticides, sewage, gasoline from service stations and other contaminants, King said." [1]

"Just your average disaster, then maybe calamity."
— me




Some further information on the possibility of oil from fracking wells escaping into the environment. The following is derived from the fuller article (referenced) in The Denver Post.

The Denver-Julesburg basin is the largest area of oil exploration in Colorado, and a significant national "play." There are 20,000 wells in this area, with 3,200 permits for open pits. Some $4 billion dollars have been invested towards oil extraction, largely through fracking.

There were 48 rigs operating when the flood began. Not all oil wells in the area were operating at the time. Of those, all are said to be now shut down.

Mike King, the executive director of the Colorado Department of Natural Resources, says that the scale of this issue is "unprecedented."

1) 'Colorado and industry working to assess damage in flooded oil fields,' The Denver Post
Colorado and industry working to assess damage in flooded oil fields - The Denver Post
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,794 posts, read 17,544,973 times
Reputation: 9424
The shareholders have a one to nothing edge over the planet!
Attached Thumbnails
Fracking your future-shareholders.jpg  
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:23 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 6,355,236 times
Reputation: 2633
Wink Oil spill on South Platte

At least 5,250 gallons of crude oil from two tank batteries have spilled into the South Platte River south of Milliken, due recent and ongoing flooding.

According to state natural resources spokesman Todd Hartman, "This is the first specific incident where we have a clear indication of the problem." [1]


1) '5,250 gallons of oil spills into South Platte River,' The Denver Post
5,250 gallons of oil spills into South Platte River - The Denver Post
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:45 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 6,355,236 times
Reputation: 2633
Wink Another, larger, spill

"Two of the releases were "significant" and the remaining eight are being classified as minor, according to an update from the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission." [1]


No point listing every ongoing iteration of this, but I will in this instance add an update to previous mention of an oil spill of 5,225* gallons due this record flooding.

There are apparently a number of flood-related oil spills now recognized. The two most "significant" to date is the spill of 5,225 gallons, and then another of 13,500 gallons. Both are Anadarko Petroleum Corp. properties, which says that released was condensate, being a mixture of oil and water. Both spills have since washed downstream in (what I am sure is) the South Platte River.

On a somewhat related note, I just happened upon mention of EPA investigations into oil related problems being terminated due the political pressure of oil companies. This is preliminary, with likely more to add on it later. Although hardly any secret that Colorado is far from the only state that has a deficit of oil industry inspectors (perhaps intentionally so), and meanwhile its environment being greatly influenced by monied oil interests.

* First spill mentioned was at 5,250 gallons. Presume this the same, if the figures slightly different.

1) 'State now tracking 10 oil and gas spills in Colorado flood zones,' The Denver Post
State now tracking 10 oil and gas spills in Colorado flood zones - The Denver Post
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