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Old 01-05-2011, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
Pueblo is ultra left that is why we are known as the Democratic strong hold of the state so only getting 55% of the vote is not good as he should of easily received 65% of the vote and that is why the national journal article talked about Pueblo.
Okay, then using your reasoning, let's take a look at the 2008 election when it was popular to be a Democrat. We'll even use the most popular Democrat of them all from 2008, Barrack Obama. And in "ultra-left" Pueblo, he earned 56% of the vote, to McCain's 41%. Almost identical spread to last year's U.S. Representative race.

There was nothing unusual about Salazar receiving 55% of the vote. And that reinforces the point that I'm now reiterating for the 4th time on this thread, that Pueblo does not hold the influence that you suggest it does.


//www.city-data.com/elec08/PUEBLO-COLORADO.html
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,250 posts, read 22,888,230 times
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Saying Pueblo is no longer a Dem stronghold and important becuase Tipton won is like saying Chicago is no longer a Dem stronghold because Mark Kirk won Illinois. This was a wave election and all sorts of things were going on besides demographic and population shifts. The district would NOT be in play for Dems at all if not for Pueblo.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
11,153 posts, read 12,763,810 times
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Joss, you're not following me. I am not saying that Pueblo is no longer a Dem Stronghold. I am saying that it is not as influential as you say it is.

Observe:

I stated that Tipton won the district DESPITE Pueblo.

You stated that Tipton won the district BECAUSE of Pueblo.

I pointed out to you that Salazar won in Pueblo County by 14 percentage points.

You stated that winning 55% of the vote was low for a Democrat in Pueblo.

I pointed out that even Barrack Obama (wildly popular in 2008) only won 56% of the vote in Pueblo, and thus concluded that for Salazar to win 55% of the vote in Pueblo was in keeping with recent voting trends in the area. From this you can conclude that Tipton won the election DESPITE Pueblo.

And from there you can conclude that Pueblo is not as influential as you believe it to be.
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
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Pueblo is by far the largest city in district 3. Grand Junction is next at only 55,000 people. This is, also, during a time Pueblo has had economic issues and stagnant growth. So as soon as Pueblo starts growing again, we would of been now except for this recession caused developments like Pueblo Springs to be put on hold, then Pueblo will be have the kind of growth it did in the post world war decades of the 1950's and 1960's cities like Grand Junction will most likely continue the same growth rate. Plus Pueblo has the only major university in the district making CSU Pueblo the flag ship university. All of this makes Pueblo the "alpha city" for the district 3.
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
11,153 posts, read 12,763,810 times
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Your last post has nothing to do with the topic. Remember, I agree that Pueblo is the "alpha" city of the district. And it is a firm Democrat city/county, as evidenced by election results from 2008 and 2010. And despite this, a Republican won the district. You say that Tipton won the district BECAUSE of Pueblo, but I've shown you that Salazar winning 55% of the vote in the county is about what a Democrat should've received in this county. So in reality, Tipton won DESPITE of Pueblo.

I know you've heard this from me already today, but I'll say it again, just to be clear: Pueblo is not as influential as you think it is.

I also noticed you are comparing the city of Grand Junction to the city of Pueblo, but a more accurate comparison between the two places, in terms of how they sway the district's elections, would be to compare Mesa County to Pueblo County. Don't look now, but Mesa County is just under 150,000 (up from 116,000 in 2000) and gaining on Pueblo. Pueblo may not be the "alpha" much longer. Now that I think about it, maybe it has already been surpassed by Grand Junction/Mesa County. Read on...

Regarding your inaccurate comment about Pueblo having the only major university, you're ignoring Mesa State College. It is a larger school than CSU Pueblo and has a larger range of graduate programs. And its geographic isolation from other (read: Front Range) universities in Colorado make it a more prominent school than CSU Pueblo.
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,250 posts, read 22,888,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Your last post has nothing to do with the topic. Remember, I agree that Pueblo is the "alpha" city of the district. And it is a firm Democrat city/county, as evidenced by election results from 2008 and 2010. And despite this, a Republican won the district. You say that Tipton won the district BECAUSE of Pueblo, but I've shown you that Salazar winning 55% of the vote in the county is about what a Democrat should've received in this county. So in reality, Tipton won DESPITE of Pueblo.

I know you've heard this from me already today, but I'll say it again, just to be clear: Pueblo is not as influential as you think it is.

I also noticed you are comparing the city of Grand Junction to the city of Pueblo, but a more accurate comparison between the two places, in terms of how they sway the district's elections, would be to compare Mesa County to Pueblo County. Don't look now, but Mesa County is just under 150,000 (up from 116,000 in 2000) and gaining on Pueblo. Pueblo may not be the "alpha" much longer. Now that I think about it, maybe it has already been surpassed by Grand Junction/Mesa County. Read on...

Regarding your inaccurate comment about Pueblo having the only major university, you're ignoring Mesa State College. It is a larger school than CSU Pueblo and has a larger range of graduate programs. And its geographic isolation from other (read: Front Range) universities in Colorado make it a more prominent school than CSU Pueblo.
That was a answer to your question as being the alpha city of the district makes Pueblo the most influential one. While Mesa county has grown significantly lately while Pueblo county has not because of the economic collapse they are not part of the front rage thus their long range growth will be limited while Pueblo's is not. In fact Pueblo Springs Ranch will have 200,000 people, more people then Mesa county, and that is just one planned development. Ask anyone who knows much about Grand Junction and they say it will never be a city of 250,000 let alone 500,000 people and Pueblo will its just a matter of "when".

As far as Mesa State College it is just that a college while Colorado State University Pueblo is a major university part of the Colorado State system. Its growth is faster then Mesa State and will someday be over 20,000 students and most likely be a division 1 school while Mesa State will be the same. That is why students from the community colleges in the region finish at Colorado State University Pueblo and not Mesa State making CSU Pueblo the flag ship school of the district.

BTW I want to add that this was not the case when it was the University of Southern Colorado as it was a joke and at that point this district did not have a flag ship university and that was one major reason this district never saw the kind of growth the northern front range did. The best thing was when the state made it Colorado State University and that is why I have a dedicated thread to the university as it is going to fundamentally change this part of the state.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
11,153 posts, read 12,763,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
thus their long range growth will be limited while Pueblo's is not.
And you can prove this how? You can't. You can only speculate.

Quote:
In fact Pueblo Springs Ranch will have 200,000 people, more people then Mesa county, and that is just one planned development. Ask anyone who knows much about Grand Junction and they say it will never be a city of 250,000 let alone 500,000 people and Pueblo will its just a matter of "when".
I like how you use the words "in fact". The fact is that Pueblo Springs Ranch is home to more prairie dogs than people right now, and will be for a long time. In fact, they haven't even broken ground yet. And if the economy doesn't turn around soon, the project is at risk of being dumped by developers who will seek to profit in other areas.

As for "asking anyone who knows about Grand Junction...", well, this is anecdotal and would not pass any academic standard. You claim to have a Master's Degree. You should know this.

Quote:
As far as Mesa State College it is just that a college while Colorado State University Pueblo is a major university part of the Colorado State system. Its growth is faster then Mesa State and will someday be over 20,000 students and most likely be a division 1 school while Mesa State will be the same. That is why students from the community colleges in the region finish at Colorado State University Pueblo and not Mesa State making CSU Pueblo the flag ship school of the district.
Today there is little difference. Some places that call themselves "colleges" instead of "universities" are top academic institutions. I'm not saying that Mesa State is one such place, I'm saying it is as major or more so an academic institution as CSU Pueblo.

It is good that the school has taken on the name of a much larger and more respected university. But that does not make it the same school as the original CSU. If you think that a degree from a satellite campus will carry the same recognition as a well respected university, you are fooling yourself.

Also, you are speculating about the growth of CSU Pueblo and presenting it as fact. Even if there is a master plan in the works that concurs with your statements, it is still speculation until it actually happens. Once again, you're failing to meet academic standards. Ironic considering we're now talking about colleges and universities.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
11,153 posts, read 12,763,810 times
Reputation: 14922
Oh, and this is just food for thought. UCCS claims to be the fastest growing university in the State of Colorado. This from their web site:

Fastest growing campus in Colorado and among the fastest in the nation.

Offering 34 Bachelor’s degrees, 19 Master’s degrees, and 5 Doctoral programs.

Includes 6 academic colleges on campus: business, education, engineering and applied science, public affairs, letters, arts and sciences, nursing and health sciences.

8,464 students enrolled in Fall 2009, a record. This year, enrollment increased more than 6 percent. For the decade, UCCS enrollment increased 27 percent.
653 faculty and 492 staff.


Here's the link:
UCCS | About

I've seen no such claim from CSU Pueblo, just from you. As I consider the official web-site of an academic institution [UCCS] a better source than the opinion of a CD poster, I am inclined to believe their claim. They also have over 1,500 graduate students, so that's a legitimate program. Compared to under 200 for CSU Pueblo. Right now that sets them way above CSU Pueblo.
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Old 01-06-2011, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,250 posts, read 22,888,230 times
Reputation: 4338
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
And you can prove this how? You can't. You can only speculate.

I like how you use the words "in fact". The fact is that Pueblo Springs Ranch is home to more prairie dogs than people right now, and will be for a long time. In fact, they haven't even broken ground yet. And if the economy doesn't turn around soon, the project is at risk of being dumped by developers who will seek to profit in other areas.

As for "asking anyone who knows about Grand Junction...", well, this is anecdotal and would not pass any academic standard. You claim to have a Master's Degree. You should know this.

Today there is little difference. Some places that call themselves "colleges" instead of "universities" are top academic institutions. I'm not saying that Mesa State is one such place, I'm saying it is as major or more so an academic institution as CSU Pueblo.

It is good that the school has taken on the name of a much larger and more respected university. But that does not make it the same school as the original CSU. If you think that a degree from a satellite campus will carry the same recognition as a well respected university, you are fooling yourself.

Also, you are speculating about the growth of CSU Pueblo and presenting it as fact. Even if there is a master plan in the works that concurs with your statements, it is still speculation until it actually happens. Once again, you're failing to meet academic standards. Ironic considering we're now talking about colleges and universities.
First off CSU Pueblo is not a satellite campus of CSU FC. In fact both schools are independent universities that have their own president and the system has a chancellor.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between CSU Pueblo and Mesa State College. Don't take my word just look at the mission statements.


Mesa State College:

Founded in 1925, Mesa State College is a comprehensive regional public higher education institution offering liberal arts, professional, and technical programs at the master's, bachelor's, associate, and certificate levels. At Mesa State, we take great pride in providing educational opportunities and tools that help students succeed in today's complex and interconnected world. Our focus is on providing quality academic programs, built on a strong liberal arts core that support students' interests and regional employment needs, as well as technical programs that respond to vocational workforce demands.

The link: About Mesa State (http://www.mesastate.edu/about/index.html - broken link)

CSU Pueblo:

Colorado State University-Pueblo is committed to excellence, setting the standard for regional comprehensive universities in teaching, research and service by providing leadership and access for its region while maintaining its commitment to diversity.

The Colorado State University System Board of Governors adopted a set of values to be shared by CSU-Pueblo and its sister school, Colorado State University in Fort Collins:

Be ACCOUNTABLE
Promote CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY
Employ a CUSTOMER FOCUS
Promote FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
Demonstrate INCLUSIVENESS and DIVERSITY
Encourage and reward INNOVATION
Act with INTEGRITY and MUTUAL RESPECT
Provide OPPORTUNITY and ACCESS
Support EXCELLENCE in TEACHING and RESEARCH

The link:Colorado State University-Pueblo > Mission Statement

I have highlighted the difference and the 3 words (research, teaching, innovation) might not seem like much but that is a huge difference in the focus of a university as research institutions have a much larger impact on the community and region they are located in. This is not to say that Mesa State College is not a good college, it is, but it is not on the same level as a university in the Colorado State system and the mission statements show that. BTW notice it says "sister school" in the mission statement as CSU Pueblo is not a satellite campus as you suggest but is its own university in the same system as CSU FC.

On to Grand Junction and Pueblo.

As soon as you said the Grand Junction MSA could pass up the Pueblo MSA you opened up this discussion to speculation on growth. All I was pointing out was Pueblo has larger developments proposed then Grand Junction does. However the fact remains the city of Pueblo is twice the size of Grand Junction and nothing I have read says that will change. In fact if you look at the recent data Pueblo's growth is increasing since it lost people because of the economic collapse.

Also, "alpha city" does is not only defined by population as Pueblo is the alpha city of southern Colorado while Colorado Springs is larger. It has to do with location and what a city has to offer. In the case of Colorado Springs it has to do with location as its easier for people in southern Colorado to shop in Pueblo and go to Pueblo's medical facilities and cultural events. In the case of Grand Junction it has to do with amenities. Tonight I was at the 51st Broadway series in Pueblo at Memorial Hall next to the Riverwalk. That got me thinking about all the amenities Pueblo has on a scale unheard of in Grand Junction. Grand Junction has nothing like Pueblo's Memorial Hall that was built in 1919 and about to undergo a 10 million dollar renovation then Pueblo has the Sangre De Cristo Art complex with a 500 seat theater for plays and CSU Pueblo has a large theater for performance, larger then the one at Mesa State. On top of the main performing arts centers Pueblo has a few local productions and its own symphony, the Pueblo Symphony. Besides performing arts Pueblo has many museums including a local and state history museum and the Buell Childrens museum. Grand Junction does have a symphony and some museums and performing arts venues but nothing on the same scale as Pueblo and Grand Junction does not have Broadway shows that come to the city on a regular bases. Then because of the state fair Pueblo has a large indoor event center and outdoor arena that can hold thousands of people and holds many events such as concerts Grand Junction is not capable of holding. Then Pueblo has a Riverwalk in downtown that is second to none in the state with a outdoor amphitheater that can hold thousands of people and has many performances during the summer from concerts to symphonies and firework shows. The bottom line is Pueblo is a much more cosmopolitan city then Grand Junction is and that makes us the "alpha city" for the 3rd district.

Last edited by Josseppie; 01-06-2011 at 02:25 AM..
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Old 01-06-2011, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,250 posts, read 22,888,230 times
Reputation: 4338
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Oh, and this is just food for thought. UCCS claims to be the fastest growing university in the State of Colorado. This from their web site:

Fastest growing campus in Colorado and among the fastest in the nation.

Offering 34 Bachelor’s degrees, 19 Master’s degrees, and 5 Doctoral programs.

Includes 6 academic colleges on campus: business, education, engineering and applied science, public affairs, letters, arts and sciences, nursing and health sciences.

8,464 students enrolled in Fall 2009, a record. This year, enrollment increased more than 6 percent. For the decade, UCCS enrollment increased 27 percent.
653 faculty and 492 staff.


Here's the link:
UCCS | About

I've seen no such claim from CSU Pueblo, just from you. As I consider the official web-site of an academic institution [UCCS] a better source than the opinion of a CD poster, I am inclined to believe their claim. They also have over 1,500 graduate students, so that's a legitimate program. Compared to under 200 for CSU Pueblo. Right now that sets them way above CSU Pueblo.
I could look it up but to be honest I am lazy tonight. However it appears to me that both schools are using the numbers to favor their growth. Notice that UCCS uses numbers for the past 10 years while CSU Pueblo has been using growth in the recent semesters. So I think both schools are correct as in the past 10 years UCCS has grown more, however, in the past 3 years CSU Pueblo has grown more. That would make sense because as a school grows it won't have the kind of percentage growth it did when it was smaller and it should not have as the infrastructure could not handle that kind of growth for a long period of time and in fact would make for a bad teaching environment.

That being said UCCS is defiantly larger then CSU Pueblo now and is a very good university and will continue to be in the future. In fact I think both universities are great as they will help the communities they are in. Keep a few things in mind though.

1) CSU Pueblo is only 7 years old and all of the growth the university has seen has occurred since it became CSU Pueblo. UCCS has been around a lot longer.

2) UCCS will never have a football program and like it or not in the U.S. major football programs are what help colleges and universities get noticed. So as the football program at CSU Pueblo continues to grow they will get the national attention that UCCS will never have. Plus just having a football stadium on campus creates a atmosphere that most students look for in a major university and I can see the change the Thunderbowl has brought to CSU Pueblo in just 3 years as students and alumni are much more excited about the university.

Last edited by Josseppie; 01-06-2011 at 02:32 AM..
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