Proposition 103 (Denver, Colorado Springs: upper-class, home, buying)

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe

Bideshi: Please check into the studies that have been done on European and Asian nations in terms of the results in students. They often do not include their substandard students (special education, title I types, highly transient, etc) in their scores.

Also, look at the breakdown on the population in terms of how homogeneous it is and the values most of the families share when it come to performing in school. Look too at how they track the academically "un-inclined" down a vocational pathway which I totally agree with at age cut point, however those students are no longer part of the equation if you are comparing say high school students alone between countries.

Devil is always in the details, isn't it.

We used to have good vo-tech in Baltimore, and there's still one left and its had a great reputation for decades; that would be Mergenthaler Vo Tech High School. Hell, problem child and baseball legend Babe Ruth was sent to Saint Mary's Industrial School for boys, which is now part of Cardinal Gibbons HS. We could sure use professional-quality trades people who really know their craft, instead of so many being so dubious.

[Mike from back east]

Lucky,

The percentage figure of 43% is a "so what" kind of thing. I don't know of any rule of thumb for what the "right" percentage would be and I'm sure it varies from state to state, from city to city, from county to county. The percentage is not an indicator of too much or too little and does not speak to me as a reason to say yay or nay on this.

Nothing in the handout on Prop 103 says they WILL spend the money on admin staff, PERA or anything else. I doubt this is a blatant money grab for PERA and bureaucrats. We've seen school bus service become something parents must now pay for out of pocket, we're seeing teacher/student ratios increase, we're seeing various subjects in jeopardy of being cut. These are the realities of several years of a bad economy that brings reduced tax income and several years of cuts to school budgets in almost every district, i.e., any fat is gone and if we keep cutting school budgets we'll be hacking away at the meat and bone.

[DXM1]

I have not voted because OP said that only Colorado residents should respond (and im not one). If i was given a chance to vote i would have voted "NO".

I am an immigrant from eastern Europe. I went to school there from grades 1- middle of 6th. Our classrooms were unheated, our textbooks were literally decades old, transportation to the school was not provided (its not fun to walk several kilometers to school when snow is as high as your arm pits). Our teachers were intimidating and believed that students should fear them. Also, we had lots of fighting and older students picking on younger students (grades 6-12 went to the same school).

When I arrived to the United States in the middle of 6th grade I was pleasantly surprised that I was about 1-1.5 years AHEAD of american students (this is in one of the best school district in New York State) in Mathematics. It took a year or so to adjust and learn the language. I became a straight A student shortly after.

The point is that you can throw all the money you want at education, it will not help. The issue is that Americans set the standards really really low for their kids (maybe because they are afraid some wont pass)? There is no selection process whatsoever. Everyone is smart enough to make it to college? Since when? Im sorry but this is not the case and should not be the case. Some people are meant to get higher education and some arent. This doesnt mean they cant have respectable jobs. The only thing that needs to be provided is OPPORTUNITY to seek higher education... Not a guarantee for everyone who applies.

What good is a new textbook, or a new gadget (ipads? Really guys? thats your solution to the education problem?) if they dont get used. YOUR STUDENTS DONT STUDY ENOUGH. Some students in college dont even know the multiplication table still. I was required to learn that in first few years of school. Students here are lazy and unwilling to work - an attitude that pampering parents have instilled in them.

Stop messing around, make your tests twice as hard, and let some people fail.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by DXM1

The point is that you can throw all the money you want at education, it will not help. The issue is that Americans set the standards really really low for their kids (maybe because they are afraid some wont pass)? There is no selection process whatsoever. Everyone is smart enough to make it to college? Since when? Im sorry but this is not the case and should not be the case. Some people are meant to get higher education and some arent. This doesnt mean they cant have respectable jobs. The only thing that needs to be provided is OPPORTUNITY to seek higher education... Not a guarantee for everyone who applies.

Bingo!! We have millions of people burying themselves in debt to obtain dubious college "educations" that do not translate into any sort of marketable job skill, and which in many cases (especially with the "for profit" and/or online diploma mills) do not translate into any real education at all.

Originally Posted by DXM1

Stop messing around, make your tests twice as hard, and let some people fail.

It's not a matter of letting them fail, it's more a matter of honestly recognizing failure when/where it occurs. When a kid reaches the 12th grade and can't read or write in English he/she has failed, regardless of the grades they got or how well they play football.

I think it's absurd that the state education lobby expects us to increase their funding levels at a time when the household incomes that they feed off continue to shrink. And I do not want to hear that we're underfunding schools while we're still putting so much as one education dollar into football teams and marching bands.

In D-20 where I reside, we have a stiff mill rate levy to pay for our schools. Adding a state tax to help fund education for districts that won't vote to do the same and pay the bill for their own schools is a huge foul.

Two "no" votes from this household and I'm actively engaging my friends and neighbors to do the same.

[zenkonami]

I have to say, the beauty of this thread and this conversation is that it is raising a lot of very valid issues and concerns over the nature of the current proposition. Kudos to all those engaging in a very civil (if hotly contested) discussion.

I'd like to pose the question: for those that do not agree about raising the tax, is there a circumstance where you might be willing to take on a temporary tax hike in order to improve education? What kind of conditions would have to be in place to ensure that the money was correctly allocated? What kind of oversight would you require?

Alternatively (and quite literally), what kind of alternative programs, or what kind of parental and social involvement might offer significantly lower cost solutions to the cause of improving education without throwing more money at the problem?

[Bideshi]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

I'd like to pose the question: for those that do not agree about raising the tax, is there a circumstance where you might be willing to take on a temporary tax hike in order to improve education?

The condition would be that more money would, in fact, improve education, but history proves exactly the opposite. Public schools in the US are a failure.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

Bingo!! We have millions of people burying themselves in debt to obtain dubious college "educations" that do not translate into any sort of marketable job skill, and which in many cases (especially with the "for profit" and/or online diploma mills) do not translate into any real education at all.

It's not a matter of letting them fail, it's more a matter of honestly recognizing failure when/where it occurs. When a kid reaches the 12th grade and can't read or write in English he/she has failed, regardless of the grades they got or how well they play football.

I think it's absurd that the state education lobby expects us to increase their funding levels at a time when the household incomes that they feed off continue to shrink. And I do not want to hear that we're underfunding schools while we're still putting so much as one education dollar into football teams and marching bands.

In D-20 where I reside, we have a stiff mill rate levy to pay for our schools. Adding a state tax to help fund education for districts that won't vote to do the same and pay the bill for their own schools is a huge foul.

Two "no" votes from this household and I'm actively engaging my friends and neighbors to do the same.

1. No, it's not "bingo!" It's called freedom. Yes, I've seen people select majors that probably weren't leading them to a very good chance at a job. But this America. That's their choice...and their problem. But guess what. Some of those history majors (for example) or English majors went on to great jobs, became successful authors or historians. You forget, we're in America. People have the right to fail. Or be successful.

2. "When a kid reaches the 12th grade and can't read or write in English..." Bob, that's getting to be a very old cliche than began back in the 1970s. I won't say it never happened, but after being an educator for 33 years, I never saw it happen even once." And where it did happen it was the fault of LOCAL GOVERNMENT, Bob. Not the feds and not the state.

3. Yes, there undoubtedly is a state education lobby. So what? What group doesn't have a lobby? It's called freedom of speech. We all know which political party you favor, and it's the party of lobbies that supports that party. You just don't like the lobbies that tend to be more on the liberal side of things.

4. Yes, a little money is spent on extra-curricular activities. But as a piece of the entire pie it is miniscule. Back in the early 1980s I was a middle school assistant wrestling coach. Someone once nagged me about all the money I was making in that extracurricular stipend. Do you want to know how much it really was? Less than 4 cents an hour. In 13 years as an administrator, in my school most club sponsors got no pay at all for their extracurricular activity. A few, such as yearbook, got a stipend of about $1100, but the school made a profit on the yearbook of several thousand dollars, which paid the stipend for yearbook, newspaper, and literary magazine (which also made small profits). It was a middle school, and some of our sports coaches made stipends of about $1000/year, but the coaches of most of the sports team got nothing. Yes, it is a little different in the high schools, but even there, gate receipts to basketball and football games cover many of a team's expenses. And some kids do get college scholarships from high school sports. My point here is that the funds that are used for extracurricular activities are not at all where the significant money is.

5. I wish you conservatives could make up your mind. When you want to talk about what you perceive as the frivolity of the federal involvement you say that education is the responsibility of the individual states. Which is okay with me, as long as we, as a nation, are willing to accept schools such as the ones we see in Louisiana and Mississippi. But when you want to criticize state funding of education, then you want to say it should be the responsibility of the local government. Which is okay, too, as long as you are willing to put up with local governments that produced those very few students who can't read when they graduate from high school...something you brought into the conversation.

6. I'm not going to say to you that there isn't money that has been wasted in schools. Many years ago as a science department chair (for which was paid a few hundred dollars a year), for example, I was required to spend a certain amount on supplies and materials, and there were years we could have easily not spend all the money...but we were forced to. Pure waste. As a principal there were times I disagreed with certain expenditures I was required to make. Again, pure waste. But far more often we were on the short end of the stick, and fortunately, in my district, we were allowed to shift some funds to areas where the need was greater. But when some areas of the school needed painting, the answer was usually, "Sorry, it's not your year in the cycle." When we needed a new roof...not in the cycle. Etc. But that's the story in virtually every entity, whether private or public. In some cases, money is spent unwisely.

6. Now I have no problem with you and your significant other voting no on the issue. I have no problem with you encouraging your friends and associates to vote no. And in this particular election round, I'm sitting things out. I know times are tough, and I know that we're in a situation where schools and every other aspect of American life have had to cut back. But at least I'd like people to understand and vote whichever way they want based on a few realities instead of cliches and myths.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

1. No, it's not "bingo!" It's called freedom. Yes, I've seen people select majors that probably weren't leading them to a very good chance at a job. But this America. That's their choice...and their problem. But guess what. Some of those history majors (for example) or English majors went on to great jobs, became successful authors or historians. You forget, we're in America. People have the right to fail. Or be successful.

You a funny guy. People have the right to fail?? So that's why we now have 99 weeks of extended unemployment and a myriad of mortgage relief programs designed to permit people to keep a house they never could afford?

Originally Posted by phetaroi

2. "When a kid reaches the 12th grade and can't read or write in English..." Bob, that's getting to be a very old cliche than began back in the 1970s. I won't say it never happened, but after being an educator for 33 years, I never saw it happen even once." And where it did happen it was the fault of LOCAL GOVERNMENT, Bob. Not the feds and not the state.

Talk to any junior Army officer about how many functionally or quasi-illiterate kids with HS diplomas they deal with on a daily basis. It does happen, and it's FAR more common than you suggest.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

3. Yes, there undoubtedly is a state education lobby. So what? What group doesn't have a lobby? It's called freedom of speech. We all know which political party you favor, and it's the party of lobbies that supports that party. You just don't like the lobbies that tend to be more on the liberal side of things.

I don't think you know which political party I favor. And lobbying in its current state is not freedom of speech, it's a legalized form of bribery and/or extortion that is catastrophically corrosive and corruptive.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

4. Yes, a little money is spent on extra-curricular activities.

Baloney. A LOT of money is spent on football and other non-education activities. I suggest you price out a football stadium, or a track, or a room full of band instruments. Cheap they are not, and maintaining them isn't, either.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

5. I wish you conservatives could make up your mind. When you want to talk about what you perceive as the frivolity of the federal involvement you say that education is the responsibility of the individual states. Which is okay with me, as long as we, as a nation, are willing to accept schools such as the ones we see in Louisiana and Mississippi. But when you want to criticize state funding of education, then you want to say it should be the responsibility of the local government. Which is okay, too, as long as you are willing to put up with local governments that produced those very few students who can't read when they graduate from high school...something you brought into the conversation.

And I wish you liberals could listen. Neither federal nor state education beaurocracies prevent failures in education. Giving them more money does not translate into better education. I managed to get most of the way through a decent K-12 education before the US Dept of Education even existed. Education can succeed in the absence of non-local beaurocracies, as it did for many, many years before big-government politicians created them. We should kill them, not feed them even more. (the beaurocracies that is...although I am not strictly against politician death )

Originally Posted by phetaroi

6. I'm not going to say to you that there isn't money that has been wasted in schools.

Now there's a relief.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

6. Now I have no problem with you and your significant other voting no on the issue. I have no problem with you encouraging your friends and associates to vote no. And in this particular election round, I'm sitting things out. I know times are tough, and I know that we're in a situation where schools and every other aspect of American life have had to cut back. But at least I'd like people to understand and vote whichever way they want based on a few realities instead of cliches and myths.

I hate it when educators presuppose that they, and only they, are able to discern between reality and myth in the school systems of America. I think any involved parent has sufficient visibility into our education system to have a good idea of what ground truth is. And I think anyone watching a young store clerk that can't make change without a cash register/calculator, or anyone sorting through a stack of job applications and/or resumes so rife with bad grammar and spelling that they may as well be written in crayon, or any instructor teaching first-year English composition in a junior college or university can tell you that the shortcomings of our education system are no friggin' myth.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

You a funny guy. People have the right to fail?? So that's why we now have 99 weeks of extended unemployment and a myriad of mortgage relief programs designed to permit people to keep a house they never could afford?



Talk to any junior Army officer about how many functionally or quasi-illiterate kids with HS diplomas they deal with on a daily basis. It does happen, and it's FAR more common than you suggest.



I don't think you know which political party I favor. And lobbying in its current state is not freedom of speech, it's a legalized form of bribery and/or extortion that is catastrophically corrosive and corruptive.



Baloney. A LOT of money is spent on football and other non-education activities. I suggest you price out a football stadium, or a track, or a room full of band instruments. Cheap they are not, and maintaining them isn't, either.



And I wish you liberals could listen. Neither federal nor state education beaurocracies prevent failures in education. Giving them more money does not translate into better education. I managed to get most of the way through a decent K-12 education before the US Dept of Education even existed. Education can succeed in the absence of non-local beaurocracies, as it did for many, many years before big-government politicians created them. We should kill them, not feed them even more. (the beaurocracies that is...although I am not strictly against politician death )



Now there's a relief.



I hate it when educators presuppose that they, and only they, are able to discern between reality and myth in the school systems of America. I think any involved parent has sufficient visibility into our education system to have a good idea of what ground truth is. And I think anyone watching a young store clerk that can't make change without a cash register/calculator, or anyone sorting through a stack of job applications and/or resumes so rife with bad grammar and spelling that they may as well be written in crayon, or any instructor teaching first-year English composition in a junior college or university can tell you that the shortcomings of our education system are no friggin' myth.

Yes, Bob, people in America do have the right to pursue a post-secondary education of their choice. We Americans believe in that much freedom, at least.

Fine Bob, give me some actual statistics about illiterate kids with high school diplomas. From what I can find out, in the last 28 years, about 10 million Americans reached the 12th grade without having learned to read at a basic level. That's out of about 84,000,000. That's a rate of about 11%...yes, far too high. Keep in mind, of course, that 14% of all students have learning disabilities, and some of those remain functionally illiterate. And, keep in mind, also, that quite a few of those students are in school districts where the taxpayers -- like you -- do not fund the schools at a sufficient level. The schools do need to do better. No question about it. So do parents. Wanna guess what kind of families some of these illiterate students come from?

Lobbying is allowed, and heavily supported by both parties and virtually all politicians.

And Bob, I never said educators feel that only they can critique education. In fact, I said I had no problem with you and your wife and whomever you can convince to vote against the budget proposal. But remember, in your typical forum post you base your positions on all the many people across the state of Colorado that you've supposedly talked to. Well, using that principle, I've talked to hundreds of administrators, dozens of school board members, thousands of teachers, thousands of students, and thousands of parents. So, to simply use your principle of what creates knowledge, I know more about education than you do.

[jazzlover]

Though Bob and phetaroi are talking from different directions, both have their finger on much of the problem with modern American (and Colorado) education. It is this: crappy or non-existent parenting leads to disinterested, disrespectful, and difficult to impossible to educate children. No amount of money thrown at education will do much to solve that problem. Add to it the "welfare state" entitlement mentality that permeates modern America--the idea that one can do nothing (except maybe start squeezing out more kids as soon as possible to increase one's welfare and government benefits) and we are going to get nothing but more lousy parenting, more delinquent and ineducable kids, and a growing perpetration of the same festering problems. And one has to ask, what intelligent person in their right mind is going to want to work in a career where being a "educator" can mean little more than trying to warehouse and surrogate parent those little (and big) brats for 8 hours a day or more? The problems in the schools have way more to do with lousy parenting than they do with all of the combined sins of the American education system. A lot of things COULD be done better in education, but throwing more money at it will do little to change things until a lot of parents grow up themselves and decide to be responsible, loving, caring parents who actually EXPECT their kid to amount to something. Kids need to grow up in an environment that encourages personal responsibility and the seemingly now novel concept that what one does positively with one's life depends heavily on what one is willing to invest in oneself in knowledge, good judgment, and self motivation.