Skier visits now down 20% over the past 2 years, do think the sport will recover? (Denver: rentals, credit)

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by BarryK123

Vail Resorts' day ticket prices are simply absurd. They may learn that the hard way.

Right now they run at max capacity(deemed by the national forest service for land use) on many weekends, so they don't seem that concerned.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by Jayess1

Keep raising prices, and the answer is "No". I've been skiing around different areas (primarily East Coast, w/occasional Rockies) for the better part of 3+ decades, and it's getting to the point of "not worth it". Up to around the late 90s/2000 or so, I could still drag family along on the occasional trip and be able to set up a couple of days w/decent equipment and it would price out ~ the same as a day at a theme park or similar. Over the past 10 years, though - YGTBKM. Sure, there are deals out there - coupons & whatnot, but put together a couple of days w/3 or 4 family members and the prices can get, well, let's just say that catering to the wealthiest ski enthusiasts isn't a way to build a business - or a sporting activity.

Well what I think happened was everyone in the ski industry saw the big bucks up for grabs in the last decade of the real estate boom and loose money lending, so everyone thought they could be Vail or Aspen too, but they are not Vail or Aspen, so what I see is many areas who have tried to cater for a market that will probably never turn up and as a result priced themselves out of reach.

One of the biggest drivers of costs now in the ski business is government. You have to have a whole army of lawyers, accountants and scientists to comply with all the regulations and permits churned out by local, state and the federal government in regards to land use, water use, environmental impact studies, health and safety, etc.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by brightdoglover

I have read for years that skiing is a tough industry for the future, simply because of demographics. Outliers aside, skiiers tend to be younger people and tend to slow down or stop as they age. There are fewer younger people than there used to be, so...
I saved myself the trouble of becoming a skiier by plowing a small ski mountain in Pennsylvania with my nose at age 20 when the guy who took me there insisted that skiing was easy and we could start on the intermediate slope. Someone should have kicked me off the mountain- I was a danger to everyone. I stopped counting my falls at 34.
Skiing is like horseback riding- inherently dangerous and no fun at all if you don't learn properly. Also, like horseback riding, I am ruined for life for having ridden in the Mountain West- the East Coast just doesn't cut it for trails and mountains.

I saw something last week in Colorado, can't remember where, that said the average person in CO that declares themselves to be a skier, skis about 5 days a year. That jives with what I have heard in the past.

The demographic issue is something the industry will have to worry about. I don't see the young people out there as much in the past. It is pricey, requires an investment in equipment and most ski hills are not down the road from people's houses.

I also don't see the same interest in X gen and below that their boomer parents have in vacation or 2nd homes and many of these ski areas have made their money selling the dream.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by proveick

Back in the day you could ski a poma or tee-bar for $8 - !0 / day.
You could also park your van / rv in the parking lot overnight. Break out the BBQ for lunch.
The good old days.
Now heated gondolas, wifi - really?
Skied with the owner of the Crested Butte newspaper. Told me they want fewer locals and more destination folks dropping $3-4K / week. What a business model.
They still think it's a pre-recession economy.

If you talk to people at Vail Resorts or elsewhere in the industry they will tell you there is very little money in locals and the people that drop the dollars are the destination travelers. Problem is that there are only so many destination travelers out there and only so many that are loaded and willing to spend.

Last week with those I talked to, some I felt were grounded in reality in 2013 with their business models and future expectations and others were still high on 2006. RE agents are the funniest of them all, whether the market is over the top or in the dumps, "It's never a better time to buy!".

Common sense things like sleeping in the lot overnight and BBQing for lunch? The good ole days when everyone had fun are over. They would need to do an environmental impact study and a health and safety study on all that. These days everything we do needs hundreds of bureaucrats to rubber stamp it. There is simply no possible way the founders of Vail could do what they did back in the late 1950's and then during construction in 1961 and 1962 and get a ski mountain built. You'll never see any such innovation, creativity and initiative again in this country. That's all been squashed dead under the boot of useless bureaucrats.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by livecontent

I think all of you are missing a big point. Many wealthy people engage in activities an eat at restaurants an ski and buy expensive conspicuous products to be exclusive. If the products or activities become too inexpensive then they lose the exclusivity that it can only be acquired or done by them who have money. Consequently it loses the value for them to maintain their status if the masses of those "others" can do those activities or buy those products.

The ski industry knows that the big bucks are made by selling to the wealthy who have no problem paying these high prices. They know it gives the status they deserve and drives out the lower and poorer class which the wealthy really do not want an association. Certainly, there has much animosity against the snowboarders who with their dress and crude behavior that destroys the elite nature of skiing. If you have a knowledge of skiing of the past, especially in places such as St. Moritz, you will realize it was very much a sport for the wealthy and the it was priced high so as to have a defacto discrimination against the lower dirty classes of society.

The Colorado Ski industry is following that formula to establish that exclusivity by raising prices to a point that the world wide wealthy will find these resorts as worthy of their money. If it becomes too cheap to attract those of limited means than it does not covey the status that they crave.

It is the same I have saw in many years in restaurants. If you make the prices too low then it drives away the status seekers of wealth. Also, Cars, Clothing, Housing are are priced high to the wealthy to maintain the status of exclusivity.

Livecontent

Very true. I don't know if any one has read the works of Thomas Stanley and his work on millionaires, but he also has some great examples on how things are priced and the importance thereof in regards to status.

When I worked in Vail for the high end side of the market, I quickly realized I was encountering 2 types of people. Those that were really wealthy and had real wealth and then those that had high incomes and wanted to be seen as wealthy, spending as they think the wealthy would and most likely in their personal situation, probably in a lot of debt. If it's priced cheap, it's seen as cheap and many status seekers want to be able to say they went to Vail or Aspen, not Powderhorn. I know this to be true because I used to remember hearing so many of them bark into their cell phones in a loudmouthed way to their coworkers or friends how they were on a ski vacation in Vail or Aspen and how they made a point of emphasizing that.

[Colorado^]

Back country for the win!

[CAVA1990]

I can think of a few other reasons:

1. Airlines have reduced capacity resutling in higher airfares.
2. Interest in Winter sports peaks (pardon the pun) during Olympic years. It's been three years since the last Winter games. You will likely see an uptick from that next season.
3. There's more competition from warm weather destinations. If you're in Chicago in February what's going to seem more attractive, a week in Vail or Cancun?

[Mezter]

I don't ski a lot, but what if Colorado loses the spot as one of the best states to ski in the US? That's all we have!

[proveick]

Should see an uptick in aspen this week. The Winter X Games start on Thurs. :-)

[bongo]

Great place where I get discount lift tickets:
Liftopia - Lift Tickets Online - Discount Ski Lift Tickets

I see lots of young folks on snowboards on the slopes.

Making snow of course will become more & more of a water issue for the future.