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Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77
Interesting that both of these states that you are holding up are nearly 100% dependent on oil prices.
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As for the violence thing, I've been to some places in Wyoming that scare me far more than the worst neighborhoods in Denver.
you asked... Which states in the region do you feel like are in better fiscal situations?
Stats show that several bordering states have better LONG TERM fiscal responsible Governments. (in spite of their source of funding. There is no argument amongst educators which states have the best funded and functioning schools (For Education and Employment). - BTW: this is the subject at hand / OP
School / student violence stats will also show a telling story about the anger problems in Colorado schools / youth.
I would expect many folks (Greenies) to feel uncomfortable in WY and places of conservative bent. It is like any foreign country, know your limits an comfort zone, and don't go into a bar and cause a scene, (Whether in WY or Thailand, or elsewhere. You may end up dead. (or worse).
I would have recommended SD to OP, but due to high % population of NA's stats are very poor. But... it is an excellent state with more diverse economy.
Colorado does have a benefit of diverse economy, international airport and larger population (opportunities for the self employed / job creators.) It just has a very caustic political profile for last 10 yrs, and will have while the battle if fought. (Battleground state / divisive).
I keep significant investment in the state of CO, but have chosen not to live there while my kids were in EDU or at the current time.
you asked... Which states in the region do you feel like are in better fiscal situations?
Stats show that several bordering states have better LONG TERM fiscal responsible Governments. (in spite of their source of funding. There is no argument amongst educators which states have the best funded and functioning schools (For Education and Employment). - BTW: this is the subject at hand / OP
School / student violence stats will also show a telling story about the anger problems in Colorado schools / youth.
I would expect many folks (Greenies) to feel uncomfortable in WY and places of conservative bent. It is like any foreign country, know your limits an comfort zone, and don't go into a bar and cause a scene, (Whether in WY or Thailand, or elsewhere. You may end up dead. (or worse).
I would have recommended SD to OP, but due to high % population of NA's stats are very poor. But... it is an excellent state with more diverse economy.
Colorado does have a benefit of diverse economy, international airport and larger population (opportunities for the self employed / job creators.) It just has a very caustic political profile for last 10 yrs, and will have while the battle if fought. (Battleground state / divisive).
I keep significant investment in the state of CO, but have chosen not to live there while my kids were in EDU or at the current time.
I did ask that. And when evaluating long term fiscal viability, diversity of economy should be a consideration. If your state is going to thrive long term, you need to be attracting talented people. WY is not doing that. Instead people take advantage of the cheap education system provided by oil money and then leave. It's not sustainable when oil prices crash.
The opposite of you, I do work in WY, but would never live there. Different strokes....
I also agree with that point, I was simply pointing out how schools rank in their respective state budget structure. MN is a diverse economy and has a much better rated education system than CO. In fact, you quite often see comparisons between Denver and Minneapolis on different threads. The question is what are they doing different to ensure that their education system is so much better funded than Colorado's?
Has CO become so anti-tax that it simply won't pay for any increase to essential services anymore, including education? Or do we need to draw from the states that are doing things well?
... Has CO become so anti-tax that it simply won't pay for any increase to essential services anymore, including education? Or do we need to draw from the states that are doing things well?
I tend to think that is the case, especially here in COLO SPGS, where it seems no tax increase ever gets approved, no matter how dreadful our streets become or storm water overruns homes and streets. School districts have their own mil levy funding and I have seen D20 residents approve some increases to that method of school funding, but voters in most school districts here vote down proposed hikes to their local mil levy or bond initiatives.
We came here from Fairfax County in Virginia, which is one the best districts in the nation and where spending on schools usually garners a 70% yes vote at election time. That county is expensive but people move their if they can find a way to afford it, just for the sake of getting their kids into Fairfax Count schools. I find it hard to believe that people here actually vote against school funding, but they do.
We've never had kids so we've never put any kids into any school systems. Over the last 40 years I'd estimate that $75k of my property tax monies have gone to school systems. I don't mind that as I consider it a civic duty to pay a share of things that we do in the country for the common good and general welfare of our nation.
Jazzlover talks about "fiscal issues." Let me make it clear; the TABOR amendment to the Colorado Constitution is the source of these issues. Obsolete highways, rotting bridges, inadequate highways, lack of transit, potholes, declining schools, rampaging storm runoff floods, reduced police presence, and many other worsening situations are all derived from a cynical mentality of "starve the beast" that throws common sense out the window and keeps local and state government in a relative form of poverty.
I refuse to be a knee-jerk reactionary who is anti-tax and anti-government as it does a major disservice to our city, county, state, and nation, not to mention dis-respectful to my fellow citizens and their right to a proper level of government services.
Across our nation, various jurisdictions are suffering from anti-tax sentiment and citizens are suffering from being poorly served. Although some jurisdictions are guilty of doing a poor or wasteful job, it is incumbent upon citizens to judge and rate our governments, fixing those that perform inadequately. Simply taking a meat axe to tax revenues doesn't mean we'll get good government, and that is where TABOR fails us, miserably.
I hope our courts find TABOR unconstitutional for taking away from government the only means government has to succeed at governing, i.e., the government's ability to levy taxes to fund government operations at a level consistent to satisfy the proper roles governments are expected to perform.
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I did ask that. And when evaluating long term fiscal viability, diversity of economy should be a consideration. If your state is going to thrive long term, you need to be attracting talented people. WY is not doing that. Instead people take advantage of the cheap education system provided by oil money and then leave. It's not sustainable when oil prices crash.
The opposite of you, I do work in WY, but would never live there. Different strokes....
A number of mis-statements above. I lived and worked in Wyoming for several years--working with some pretty high-powered people. Nearly all of them were University of Wyoming grads. They were intelligent, well-educated, and articulate. I dealt with a quite a few people in the agricultural community there, too. Most of them were UW grads, as well, and they certainly were not uneducated "clods." If there is a group in Wyoming that could be called uneducated and unskilled, it is a lot of the lower echelon, entry level oilfield workers--and most of them were/are from someplace other than Wyoming. If anything, I think that a higher percentage of Wyoming natives stay in Wyoming than do people from Colorado. Wyoming takes pride in its schools, from K-12 through college. Because of its small population and because the University of Wyoming is the only 4-year university in the state, there is a strong esprit de corps and "network" among grads from "U-Dub"--associations that students develop while attending UW often last for life. That also provides a statewide sense of community in Wyoming that is no longer present in overpopulated, transplant-infested Colorado (though I can remember when that was not the case in the "old Colorado"). As a one-time Wyoming Governor put it, "Wyoming is a big small town with a mighty long Main Street."
Now, as to the educational system, it is no secret that revenue from the minerals industry funds a huge chunk of Wyoming education. Fortunately for Wyoming, its political leadership from long ago recognized that the revenue bonanza from minerals would not last forever, so the state's Permanent Mineral Trust Fund was set up, basically as an endowment for the time in the future when mineral revenues are no longer the revenue source that they are now. Moreover, Wyoming actually has quite a bit of "wiggle room" to impose taxes on its residents without damaging the economy if it was ever necessary to do so. Colorado--thanks to a lot of growth that hasn't paid for itself over several decades, a fair amount of fiscal mismanagement, and its Constitutionally straight-jacketed taxation and budgeting system--has no such latitude or financial reserves. For Colorado, its current fiscal condition is essentially as good as it will ever be--it's a downhill slide from here. The only question is how steep and/or how fast the downhill slide will be.
.... as to the educational system, it is no secret that revenue from the minerals industry funds a huge chunk of Wyoming education. Fortunately for Wyoming, its political leadership from long ago recognized that the revenue bonanza from minerals would not last forever, so the state's Permanent Mineral Trust Fund was set up, basically as an endowment for the time in the future when mineral revenues are no longer the revenue source that they are now. Moreover, Wyoming actually has quite a bit of "wiggle room" to impose taxes on its residents without damaging the economy if it was ever necessary to do so. Colorado--thanks to a lot of growth that hasn't paid for itself over several decades, a fair amount of fiscal mismanagement, and its Constitutionally straight-jacketed taxation and budgeting system--has no such latitude or financial reserves. For Colorado, its current fiscal condition is essentially as good as it will ever be--it's a downhill slide from here. The only question is how steep and/or how fast the downhill slide will be.
For clarity to readers, "revenue from the minerals industry" means Wyoming's Severance Tax on mineral extraction of mostly petroleum and coal, but lesser minerals. About four years ago, when Colorado tried to increase the Colorado severance tax, the reactionaries that I spoke of did their standard thing of cranking up a fear campaign of how Nancy Homemaker would find her gasoline unaffordable, etc. The tax increase failed and Colorado's forced austerity continued.
IIRC, the WY severance tax is about double the rate here in CO. The firms doing the extraction will sell their oil and gas at market prices and since they pay less severance tax in CO they will pump us dry before they pump WY dry. A lot of natural gas extracted in both states is piped as far east as Indiana, the point being consumers in THOSE states will pay for the severance tax, not us. But knee-jerk voters, poorly informed on relevant facts, cut their own throat and left money on the table that could have helped the state.
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I also agree with that point, I was simply pointing out how schools rank in their respective state budget structure. MN is a diverse economy and has a much better rated education system than CO. In fact, you quite often see comparisons between Denver and Minneapolis on different threads. The question is what are they doing different to ensure that their education system is so much better funded than Colorado's?
Has CO become so anti-tax that it simply won't pay for any increase to essential services anymore, including education? Or do we need to draw from the states that are doing things well?
Boulder Valley SD just passed a big bond issue, which many felt was excessive, including my study group. But anyway, the schools will be getting more money.
As for MN, which seems to think it is the best, best, best in everything, I think the first question to ask is "is their education system so much better financed than Colorado's?", not Why is it.
It's surprising people in Colorado don't want to fund education. You folks have a large percentage of educated people, usually people with degrees want their kids to have degrees and value education and are willing to pay a little more to get it. NJ people pay crazy high property taxes, but the result is having the best schools in the country. We think it's worth it.
As other people have mentioned, it's typically from people coming from out of state. They will pay for private or charter schools. Higher ed is also becoming a problem in this state as well. Live anywhere but Denver and Colorado Springs and need to see any type of specialist besides a GP for a Doctor, and you will find out just what kind of a mess our education system has gotten us in.
TABOR has taken away nearly all state funding from the college level. People leave to go to college and simply don't return. Typical brain drain....
A number of mis-statements above. I lived and worked in Wyoming for several years--working with some pretty high-powered people. Nearly all of them were University of Wyoming grads. They were intelligent, well-educated, and articulate. I dealt with a quite a few people in the agricultural community there, too. Most of them were UW grads, as well, and they certainly were not uneducated "clods." If there is a group in Wyoming that could be called uneducated and unskilled, it is a lot of the lower echelon, entry level oilfield workers--and most of them were/are from someplace other than Wyoming. If anything, I think that a higher percentage of Wyoming natives stay in Wyoming than do people from Colorado. Wyoming takes pride in its schools, from K-12 through college. Because of its small population and because the University of Wyoming is the only 4-year university in the state, there is a strong esprit de corps and "network" among grads from "U-Dub"--associations that students develop while attending UW often last for life. That also provides a statewide sense of community in Wyoming that is no longer present in overpopulated, transplant-infested Colorado (though I can remember when that was not the case in the "old Colorado"). As a one-time Wyoming Governor put it, "Wyoming is a big small town with a mighty long Main Street."
Now, as to the educational system, it is no secret that revenue from the minerals industry funds a huge chunk of Wyoming education. Fortunately for Wyoming, its political leadership from long ago recognized that the revenue bonanza from minerals would not last forever, so the state's Permanent Mineral Trust Fund was set up, basically as an endowment for the time in the future when mineral revenues are no longer the revenue source that they are now. Moreover, Wyoming actually has quite a bit of "wiggle room" to impose taxes on its residents without damaging the economy if it was ever necessary to do so. Colorado--thanks to a lot of growth that hasn't paid for itself over several decades, a fair amount of fiscal mismanagement, and its Constitutionally straight-jacketed taxation and budgeting system--has no such latitude or financial reserves. For Colorado, its current fiscal condition is essentially as good as it will ever be--it's a downhill slide from here. The only question is how steep and/or how fast the downhill slide will be.
Anecdotal evidence does not make a case. The brain drain in Wyoming has been pretty well documented.
I do however agree with you about TABOR in Colorado. It needs to go. It will be whittled away at little by little. Anti tax conservatives are a major problem to Mike's point, but fortunately demographics change.
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