Start a new adventure or find our way back home??

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by CiaraBeara

My husband & I are looking to relocate but stuck between a rock & a hard place. ... take the leap & move to somewhere we've both always dreamed in Colorado? We plan on starting a family within the next few years, so this is a major factor. The drive to Omaha is only about 7 hours, which is very doable. We're very adventurous and love trying new things, which is why moving to CO is so appealing, but the fact that we would still be far away from our Omaha friends & family is pulling on my heart strings. Help!

Take the leap TODAY (before kids). Consider other options than Colorado if you have heart strings pulling (and better paying J-o-b-s). At the moment, follow the passion and the money. When the family comes along there will be additional barriers (whining grandparents (and kids)).

As a youth my parents were in Estes Park and Loveland Colorado and their families were near Lincoln, NE The trip is quite acceptable, but is far (~4x/yr). If your family can fly to meet you in CO it will help. (our NE family were dairy farmers, so they never could come to CO. )

What is your career / location options in Colorado? Personally, I would rather live in Julesburg or Imperial than Denver (and be closer to NE!).

If you want Mtns... Denver is not your spot.

Can you do WY? (that can be a FAR better choice if you have employment / on-line jobs). Mtns, Schools and neighbors are MUCH better in WY, and NO state income tax will help you retire 10% earlier. SD is income tax free too, and VERY close to Omaha! Sioux Falls is exploding with more banking jobs, Spearfish is a quite nice SD option (near WY, Mtns, college town, near RC, black hills) GREAT recreation.

Colorado does have more mtns and variety of mtn places than WY, but the 'pressure' (Zillions of people) make weekends pretty ugly in beautiful CO mtn areas. Mid week is pretty nice... If you are stuck in CO... rent your mtn place out on weekends via Air B&B and go to WY. (or NE) (Rents will be taxable in CO, but not if you were living in WY or SD!)

Time to leave the East coast as soon as you enjoy the fall colors. Several friends from CO and PNW have tried to move to NE / East Coast USA. Has not worked out for the majority. Short stays / visits / school / 2-5 yr work assignments seem to be adequate. It seems to be one of those places that is better to visit than to live. (Which Colorado is for us since 1979). YMMV

Same is true for our current home in PNW (200+ days / yr of rain, but it is GREEN....) everything comes with a price.

NOW is your time to experience it more cheaply and with a LOT less hassle than packing around clothes / furniture and kids and pets and carseats and diapers...

[lurtsman]

For once I agree with everything Stealth Rabbit says, with of course the exception about state income tax. If you have an absurdly high income by having a skill set protected by certain institutions, then it matters a great deal. If you're like the normal American family and living on around 50k/year rather than 250k/year the difference is a mere 2k or so per year which can easily be eaten by other costs. Of course, I'm happy to pay the income tax in Colorado to be here in the great weather rather than the frigid lands of SD.

Since you've indicated some separation anxiety already, I doubt you'll find Colorado works for you and you may very well be one of those couples that is "pulled back" to an area in the Midwest by friend and family ties.

Regardless, it is better to try it now and learn what you really want before you take on more responsibilities. For instance, here is an excellent great video on not having kids (entirely satire):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AhGvR0143s

Warning, don't try not having kids if you already have kids, as that would make you a neglectful ***hole.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

[b][color="Blue"]
If you are stuck in CO... rent your mtn place out on weekends via Air B&B and go to WY. (or NE) (Rents will be taxable in CO, but not if you were living in WY or SD!)

Wrong here, SR.

As a Colorado mountain resort rental property owner and now WY resident, I have to file and pay CO Income Tax to Colorado Dept of Revenue every year on the rental income generated in Colorado. It's been this way for years.

As well, as a 32+ year resort rental property owner in Colorado, I'd advise the OP to:

1) RENT Colorado mountain resort property when they want to stay in the mountains. It's far more cost effective for folk without the affluence to afford the "luxury" of having their own place to keep up, maintain, deal with property taxes/insurance, etc.

2) Understand that the property management activity, especially for absentee property owners seeking short-term rental guests ... IS A BUSINESS. If you can't be there to do the turn-overs, clean the place, or deal directly with any maintenance or emergency property issues for your guests, then you need to engage the services of professional property management/rental management of your place. The mountain resort communities are targeted to this segment of the marketplace and there are many such managers available. They come at a cost, fee for services, and they mark up the costs of the affiliated services that they utilize. As a property owner, you pay for this off the top of your rental income.

Few folk with a property in the resort areas capture 100 days worth of rentals per year. Those that do are generally prime property owners in a managed development with active on-site marketing/sales/rentals, be it a condo/townhome development or managed SFH's. For the folk with places that aren't in prime locations (such as ready access to a ski mountain), the short-term rentals are even less ... but require just as much work as the prime properties for cleaning, maintenance, and affiliated expenses.

3) In a more general overall view of the OP's situation, I'd venture that as a young couple starting out they've got a huge financial hurdle to cross just getting into their primary residence. A 2nd residence in the Colorado mountains would most likely be a totally out of reach ... especially in light of the financial resources needed to buy a non-owner occupied house in that marketplace.

[StealthRabbit]

soooooo jumping to un-informed conclusions...

of COURSE your earnings from Colorado based income would be taxed by Colorado.

but... just imagine... (I know, very tough) if the OP would domicile in WY and buy a place in WY and (occasionally) rent 'it' (WY place) out (light bulb...) (just like the CO example, but from a WY (or SD) domicile)...

I will venture to GUESS Colorado would not be able to attach taxes to a WY domiciled resident on their WY based income

Yes, vacation properties have a high cost of admission and ownership, and often very poor returns / cap rates. Probably not in the wise portfolio management of a young couple (nor may be home / primary residence ownership). But... an affordable residence in a delightful vacation area that is seasonally rented out while the OP heads to Europe (or Omaha) for a few months during prime season is a formula that is working for many young and industrious home owners. (Not something I recommend, but need not diss, as the evidence is there to support a potential true benefit) Several instances of people 'affording' their primary and secondary homes through VRBO or Air B&B or similar income.

I prefer to let folks enjoy my view homes via Hospitality homes and $10 / night (which all gets donated to charity / shared with travelers who are needy, as is the 'suggestion' from hosting groups).
Hospitality exchange - Wikitravel.

I don't need the revenue... by 39 yr old car is doing just fine. (and was a great help to being able to homeschool and retire by age 49 on a single hourly income). Good plan for OP... get back to NE often if you have no school obligations. Grandparents are great tutors for Homeschoolers)

50 mpg since 1976, no dinosaurs required (just for you...

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

soooooo jumping to un-informed conclusions...

Not if one is reading what you've posted, SR. I quote you above: "(Rents will be taxable in CO, but not if you were living in WY or SD!) "

In the context you wrote, you effectively asserted that the OP could buy a mountain property in CO for rental income and then live in WY or SD and the CO income wouldn't be taxable due to no income tax in those latter states.

of COURSE your earnings from Colorado based income would be taxed by Colorado.

Exactly.

but... just imagine... (I know, very tough) if the OP would domicile in WY and buy a place in WY and (occasionally) rent 'it' (WY place) out (light bulb...) (just like the CO example, but from a WY (or SD) domicile)...

Just imagine these two young folk trying to buy an affordable place in WY these days where they could cash flow even on a full-time rental.

I'm a pro investor, have been following the WY market for decades, and have personally bought residential, farming, ranching, and commercial properties here in the last two decades. I put my trust into the boom/bust cycles of the area, sought out "good deals" ... even made direct cash offers at low prices to distress owner situations, and bank repo's. None of them cash flowed in the first several years as full time property rentals, some of them had significant negative cash flows. I speculated with my own money that WY's economy would recover in due course, and so far I've been right. But the only way I've made a good ROI on all of them was to cash out when the market/activity recovered.

I will venture to GUESS Colorado would not be able to attach taxes to a WY domiciled resident on their WY based income

Again, you're correct. We have a winner here.


Yes, vacation properties have a high cost of admission and ownership, and often very poor returns / cap rates. Probably not in the wise portfolio management of a young couple (nor may be home / primary residence ownership).

Thank you for finally being candid about the realities of resort/vacation property ownership.

It's not the same as your proverbial $100K acquisition in TX or BFE that rents out for $1,000/month and never has a vacancy or needs repairs, or taxes or insurance to be paid. Nor ever needs property management response on-site ... you can't possibly always be able to respond when you're on a contract working overseas. Yet provides a 2nd home for you and storage space for all your 40 cars and 30 trucks and pieces of heavy equipment and toys and recreation space and shops and is all accessible by $80 flights on demand with no charge for your carry on coolers anytime you want to travel.

SR, I know that you're absolutely the best investor and property manager that ever walked the face of this earth. Your claimed talents as an investor and manager so far exceed the folk that I know that have only made $300-500,000,000 in the property assests game that you'd easily be worth $millions/year as a manager to them. And I'll bet with your talents, you could work from anywhere via a 'net connection.



But... an affordable residence in a delightful vacation area that is seasonally rented out while the OP heads to Europe (or Omaha) for a few months during prime season is a formula that is working for many young and industrious home owners.

It's a BS myth you propagate here, SR. What, pray tell, are these young folk, the OP, gonna' do for a living when they're traveling?

Not everybody has 4 degrees like you and is so in demand worldwide for your fabulous skillset that they can command a living income and time off "for a few months" each year.


Firstly, you've projected your desires and travels and needs upon the OP, who has never declared any such interests in World Travel for extended periods of time.

Secondly, I've got my current listings and recent sales in a typical Colorado resort area ... Jane Hand's Berkshire Hathaway flyer for the month (as an active investor in the area, I'm on her complimentary mailing list). SFH's in the area are selling for prices ranging from $500 psf and up. Some houses are listed for almost or over $1,000 psf. Condo's in areas that you'd want to live are in the same price floor psf. Raw land in the town limits is bringing sales in the range of $1.5 mil for 0.6 of an acre ... zoned for approximately 7,000 sq ft of residential structure (could be a McMansion, could be a duplex, could be a triplex), gotta' have off-street parking for each of the units.

Not one of these residences, even rented out FULL TIME with zero occupancies would come close to cash flowing. These are strictly in the realm of affluent investors or folk who can afford to indulge in owning such a property for their exclusive use. In my experience, many do keep them for their exclusive use, and leave them vacant for the 48 weeks per year that they don't use them.

(Not something I recommend, but need not diss, as the evidence is there to support a potential true benefit) Several instances of people 'affording' their primary and secondary homes through VRBO or Air B&B or similar income.

Sorry, SR ... but your responses to the OP's needs are so far out of whack with what a young couple starting out for careers in a new location could possible afford to reasonably do is pure fantasy in today's economy and housing markets. My bet if that if they do move to Colorado, they'll be hard pressed for at least several years just to afford their primary residence and basic standard of living, let alone extended visits to out of the area or overseas.

As far as a WY primary residence goes, they'll encounter similar housing costs dwarfing their potential incomes for awhile. And you apparently haven't been following the economic problems presented by the current administration's aggressive stance towards devastating the WY economy via overreach on EPA or DOL. They're about to wipe out significant portions of the ranching and coal industries in WY right now; the effects are already being felt as wells are being capped, drill rig count is down to a handful, and fracking/welding jobs are disappearing. DOL new standards re H-2A sheepherder jobs are poised to wipe out substantial portions of the sheep ranching industry ... projected at about 40% of the activity in the state right now.

PS: I've spent over 50 years of my life hanging out with folks who just let everything go and became ski bums or associated with the ski/tourism industry in CO. Watched them live the life as skiers, restaurant owners, shop owners, bar tenders, waitstaff, ski boot manufacturers, tour guides, fishing guides, laborers, carpenters, welders, plumbers, painters, etc. It's a lifestyle ... most of them lasted only a few years. The business owners generally only made their money when they sold the going business. You've really got to want to do this.

[Sunderpig2]

Some advice above comes from living in CO decades ago, rather in the present. Much has changed over the years, and as much as a person feels updated on matters, there's no substitute for 24/365 experience on all that is current in CO.

It's a whole different world launching life as a young person in Colorado circa 1950s/60s, versus 2015.

[CiaraBeara]

Thank you everyone, this really has helped us tremendously. We've read each reply and really applied them to our decision. I think you guys are all right, while Colorado is a fun adventure & would suit our outdoorsy lifestyle well (we have visited a few times, but of course visiting is different than living.), we think that the mature thing would be to think long term & where we want our kids to be.. 10 minutes from family, or a days drive. I didn't grow up surrounded by family & my husband did, which is why our pro & con list was a bit split.. But ultimately, I always wished I would've had that big family support growing up like he did. We've decided to head to Omaha once we get some of our finances in order and we've PROMISED that we will visit Colorado regularly to fulfill our Rocky Mountain void. Thank you all!

[jessicarae1060]

I think you made a great choice OP. We have 3 children and family is in Utah and Michigan respectively. We see the Utah family maybe 3 times a year and the Michigan family once every 2 years or so. I think it is very unfair for my children, however, my husband is not willing to live in either of those states again. So, I cannot begin to tell you how important I think living near family is. In addition, picture your 10th anniversary and you desperately want just a single night away and there is no family around and no friends want to watch babies and toddlers! BTDT...